quote:

---

Originally posted by bjdzyak
In other words, if you don't want to be a professional Cameraman, then why spend any money on lighting gear or and gear at all? An aspiring Special FX Makeup Artist isn't going to go buy a lighting kit and camera and wardrobe rack or anything else.

---

I know I can answer this question for me.

When I was just starting I wasn't comfortable asking
dedicated people like DP's, gaffers and audio people
to help out when I went out with my little super 8
camera and a few friends. And I lived very close to
Brooks Institute in Santa Barbara where these people
(and equipment) were available. I remember going to
their sound stage when I was 14 and seeing all the
16mm equipment, lighting, sound... I was gobsmacked.
But I wasn't ready to ask them to work with me on my
film about undercover cops (we were 14-15) chasing
drug dealers around Santa Barbara.

I was still learning. I had scripts but they weren't really
good enough to show to college students or local
professionals and I wasn't yet scheduling my shooting
days. I would shoot on a whim with my friends. Even
when I did schedule a couple of days to shoot in my
house or a friends house I wasn't really ready (at 14
to 16) to enlist college students or professionals.

So I bought my own equipment - work lights, used
light stands, clamp on lights, foam core - and learned
about lighting myself. And I could do that in my own
time frame. I could set up in my room and then not
actually shoot anything. Couldn't do that if I had a DP,
gaffer and sound person with all their equipment
ready and willing to help me.

Interesting that you mentioned make up EFX. When
I was just getting started I wanted to be a director/writer.
As I learned more about cameras and lighting I found
I really enjoyed that aspect. I bought a 16mm camera
and better lights. When I made movies with fights and
guns I needed blood splatters and wounds so rather
than finding a make up person I learned how to do it
my self.

As I moved through my path to a career I found a girl
who liked photography and she started shooting my
movies. And I got better and better at make up EFX.

My first paying jobs in the business were as a special
make up effects artist. and I started THAT career path
as a director who bought lighting gear.

I spent 14 years in EFX. Because if my interest and
knowledge in cameras and lighting I can actually make
part of my living now as a camera operator and I'm an
electrician with Local 33 doing lights for theater. During
those 14 years I directed 4 features and 28 music videos
- so I kept my directing skills up, too.

And all that was because when I wanted to be a director
I purchased cameras and lighting.

So that's why I spent money on gear when I was just starting.

=============================================
The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress.
Joseph Joubert, essayist (1754-1824)

quote:

---

Originally posted by bjdzyak

Yes, I am a beginning film maker. I have NO PREVIOUS EXPERIENCE. I am planning to shoot my first film in the spring of 2010.
Honestly, my intent isn't to go "cheap" on the lights, but naturally I would like to spend as little as possible. If need be, I've got an extra 800-1,000 bucks I could spend for the lighting. Is that amount enough for cheap, decent, or good?

---

In short, that amount won't buy you much in the way of lighting, grip, electric gear. Remember, it's NOT just lights you need, but stands (potentially different sizes) and extension cables and other ways to rig lights in places that you can't put stands. Plus ways to control the lights you turn on like diffusion, scrim type material to control the amount of lights and flags to control what the light hits or doesn't.

Can you use things you'll find at a hardware store? Of course! But, there's an old adage that says, "Fast, Cheap, Good... pick two." In your case, though, you're opting for Cheap (with that budget) so you really will only get one because working with non-industry specific gear won't make your life easy so it won't be "Fast."

As far as "Good," since you are a beginner, you could achieve "Good" with a little luck, but even an experienced person would have trouble creating "Good" with equipment that wasn't designed for what you'll use it for.

As the other guys have said, take a look at the prices for "real" gear and you'll see fairly quickly that even $1,000 won't go very far. (you can find gear and prices here http://www.filmtools.com and here http://www.studiodepot.com/store) Remember, you're not just shopping for lights themselves, but the bulbs that go in them plus all the support gear to make them work.

There are a few places where you can buy used gear. Just type "used film equipment" into the Google search box to start.

Should any of this dissuade you from NOT proceeding? Not at all. Necessity is the mother of invention or so they say, so if you want to do this, you'll find anything you can from wherever you can and "make it work." That's admirable and is something you should do particularly when you're just starting out. But, I'll say it again, when you get serious, first determine what it is that YOU really want to do be it directing or producing or being a Cameraman. If it's directing you want, seriously consider finding someone else near you who DOES want to do that job.

Why? Because, if you don't want to be a Cameraman, they'll likely do it much better than you ever will and will know the gear and can likely get better gear than you can. Then you can concentrate on what it is YOU really want to do instead of investing time and money into a specific job that you have no intention of doing anyway. In other words, if you don't want to be a professional Cameraman, then why spend any money on lighting gear or and gear at all? An aspiring Special FX Makeup Artist isn't going to go buy a lighting kit and camera and wardrobe rack or anything else. He's going to concentrate on what HE needs for HIS specific job and then join a group of other people who all have their own passions.

Just one more note. Sound was mentioned, but it deserves more attention. No matter how you choose to shoot and light your movie, audiences are likely to forgive a less-than-perfect picture but they generally have NO tolerance for poor sound. If they can't hear the dialogue and/or it just sounds "bad" and the rest of the soundtrack is subpar, they'll write your movie off as "amateur" and move on quickly. Many a movie with poor imagery has been "saved" because the soundtrack is "perfect." Do NOT underestimate the power that a solid, clean, polished soundtrack (dialogue, sound effects, music) can have.

From what I know about your situation (which isn't much), my suggestion is that you go to Home Depot to buy cheap lights and muddle your way through that exercise. But take "extra" money you have and invest it into getting a great Sound Mixer (and Boom Operator) so you get clean dialogue tracks. And then invest money into a sound mix that gives your project that "professional" feel. You will not regret it.

Brian Dzyak
Cameraman/Author
IATSE Local 600, SOC
http://www.whatireallywanttodo.com
http://www.realfilmcareer.com
?/quote?

Alrightythen! This begs the obvious question. Can I get a cheap, decent, or good group of sound accessories and stuff for that same 800-1,000 dollars?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bababooey

Alrightythen! This begs the obvious question. Can I get a cheap, decent, or good group of sound accessories and stuff for that same 800-1,000 dollars?

---

Well, again I'd highly advise that you find an experienced Sound Mixer who has gear already before you rush out to purchase "cheap" gear (a mixer, a recording format - harddrive or other, quality shotgun mics, boom pole, RF mics, XLR cables, "media" for recording to, batteries).

The downside to owning sound equipment is two-fold. The first is that when you own the gear, you're likely asking someone who is NOT experienced to be in that department. So you'll have "someone" sit at the mixer and someone else who is likely even more inexperienced attempting to boom. The results of that scenario rarely turn out as well as you might hope.

The second problem is that of "problems" and knowing how to deal with them quickly and efficiently. Knowing what is a problem on set and what won't be later on in post is key to keeping a day moving for any department. But while everyone else on set is primarily interested in something VISUAL, the Sound Department is the only one concerned about sound. So, not only do the boom mics have to be pointed correctly as Actors trade dialogue, but the Mixer has to know when extraneous noise won't be a problem or should necessitate additional takes. That's important because an additional take means time out of your production day and less productivity overall. Also, if there are "buzzes" or other "noises" that aren't obvious to anyone else on set, the Sound Mixer must know or find out what it is and what's causing it quickly in order to fix it.

So owning your own gear then asking generic people to run it isn't the best option if you can avoid it.

Maybe it takes actually "hiring" a Sound person with his gear for the production days you have scheduled. You're not likely to afford his normal day rate and equipment rental fee (somewhere between $350 and $550 for a ten-hour day) so you'll have to appeal to his sense of artistic generosity. Perhaps offer a modest equipment rental fee to take some of the sting of a "free" shoot off of your request.

A quality on set recording will save you time and money when you set out to create the soundtrack in post. So if you can, find someone who is experienced and who is looking for an opportunity to put a narrative film on his resume. He'll likely have equipment that he is already familiar with and you'll have the peace of mind not having to worry that the Sound Department is doing that job correctly and well.

I urge you to check out these links for more help:

SOUND LINKS

http://www.coffeyinteractive.com/phpbb2/ramps.php - RAMPS, Sound Newsgroup

http://www.coffeyinteractive.com/phpbb2/index.php - Sound Forum

http://audiotuts.com/mixing-mastering/how-to-process-vocals-for-an-amazing-professional-sound - How to Process for an Amazing Professional Sound

And for even more help with every step of production, check out the resources listed here:

http://realfilmcareer.com/forum/index.php?board=128.0

Brian Dzyak
Cameraman/Author
IATSE Local 600, SOC
http://www.whatireallywanttodo.com
http://www.realfilmcareer.com

I hope you don't mind me chiming in again, Brian. As a person with years (actually, decades) of experience in recording audio, I will completely agree with you on everything.

As for advice to this young fellow, I'm doubtful he is in a position to attract an experienced sound person with gear for his first project, especially without paying for anything.

I can completely understand why he is thinking the way he is thinking (get a camcorder, then most elementary lighting gear and sound gear on his own). He has no way of knowing how successful his filmmaking career will be. He can't know if he has any talent. All he knows is that he has plenty of ideas for movies and would like to produce those ideas without going to film school or breaking the bank. Initial investment into elementary gear can get him exactly that -- the ability to motivate some friends to participate in his production.

I would argue, there are plenty of audio engineering students who don't own any audio recording gear, but know how to record quality audio and process it later. These are kids who are actually into MP&E (Music Production & Engineering), so they'll probably never own their own gear (other than occasional independent recording studio) I would venture a guess that this would be the pool from which our OP would recruit his sound department. Therefore, having some audio gear to record audio would help very much.

If the budget for audio gear alone is $800-$1000, then I'd suggest things like the following:

• A laptop (I'll assume that's already available);
• A multi-track digital audio interface (Tascam's US-1641 goes for $300 at B&H and is an amazing portable USB2 device with 8 phantom-powered mic inputs);
• A shotgun mic (there's this very cheap NADY SGM-12 for $25 each, but apparently, some people got defective units. Alternatively, you could get a $200 Audio-Technica AT875R, which is much more reliable brand)
• A boom pole (ProStudioTools Pro62-SE goes for under $50 and comes with a shock mount)
• A lavaliere mic (such as the $100 Audio-Technica PRO 70)
• A wider uni-directional condenser or two (Behringer C-2, $60 for a pair)
• Microphone boom stands (about $20 each, but could be found used much cheaper)

The mic suggestions are just that. Some are very cheap, but still provide a lot of bang for the buck. The main thing is to have plenty of options. An overhead with a boom pole is required in practically all but few shooting situations; a lavaliere or two helps a lot in many shots where an overhead can't come close enough (because of the framing of the shot), and the ambient noise is too much. Other microphones help when sound sources (i.e. dialogue) come from various places and single boom mic will have a hard time picking it all up. The most important part is that laptop and the audio interface, since these will allow you to record multiple audio tracks simultaneously.

If you're looking for the barest of minimums, than it would be an audio interface (assuming you already have a laptop), boom pole, uni-directional (or shotgun) mic and the XLR cable for the mic.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Vasic

I hope you don't mind me chiming in again,

---

How could I mind? EVERY point-of-view and all advice is valuable. 🙂

If nothing else, I'd like to impart the message to aspiring "filmmakers" that the questions "What camera should I buy?" and "What is the best filmschool?" don't even come CLOSE to the real questions they should be asking.

Yes, a camera is necessary to make a movie. Could it be done with only a camera and no other equipment? Of course. Well, sort of. If the movie was shot in order and edited "in camera." I've tried that without much success. 🙂

BUT, the "filmmaker" wants to make a higher quality project, more "stuff" is necessary. Yes, a camera. The choice of type and quality shouldn't be driven by what the "filmmaker" can afford, but rather by what the point of the project is. If the project is meant only for Internet distribution, he seriously doesn't need an IMAX camera and the related costs when the simplest standard definition camera will be more than enough. But if you're going to a festival, then you MUST conform your project to the standards they require. The same goes for a theatrical release or a television network deal. How the project will be seen, sold, and/or distributed should drive the choice of camera/format/media... not how much money is in someone's savings account.

THEN, unless the plan is to do everything handheld with no lighting using only the on-board camera microphone, then the aspiring "filmmaker" WILL need to obtain a lot more "stuff."

Camera Dept: Camera, tripod, other mounting/moving hardware (dolly, Steadicam, handheld grips), possibly a matte box for filters and to keep flares out of the lens, lenses, media (tape or digital media or film), batteries.

Sound: Mixer, recording device, media, boom pole, boom mic, lav mics, cables, batteries.

Grip: Cstands, rigging hardware, flags, scrims, sandbags.

Electric: Power supply (Generator), AC cables, lights, stands, gels, clothespins (for gels), diffusion.

Props: the props

Wardrobe: wardrobe, cleaning provisions, mending provisions.

Makeup: makeup

Hair: hair supplies

Production: scheduling know-how and supplies like scheduling software and copying capabilities, Production Assistants for "lock-ups," additional production coordination so that crew and cast get to set on time, access to bathrooms, food for lunch and "Crafts Service" to keep the crew and cast energized throughout the long production day, additional resources necessary to keep production efficient.

Transportation: moving people and equipment quickly and efficiently to each location

Sets/Locations: building or securing sets and/or practical locations for the production day.

Post-production picture editing: hardware and software and technical support

Post-production sound editing: same

Post-production sound mixing: same

And more.

The point is that there is SO MUCH more than just having the "best" camera. Even if the budget is nil, ALL of those things above MUST be accounted for even if the aspiring "filmmaker" chooses to NOT have them represented on his project. In other words, can you make a movie without the proper grip gear? Sure. Just know that there will be compromises in camera and/or lighting setups. Can you make the movie without providing Crafts Service and/or other meals? Sure! But there are ramifications. Can you choose to shoot in a remote location and not supply portable bathrooms? Of course, but the downside of that choice may not be popular with cast and crew.

New "filmmakers" generally HAVE TO make movies with low or no budgets so corners are cut from the "optimum." Just so long as the new filmmakers is aware of what has to be thought of, he can find lower cost alternatives so that the end project is close to what he imagined. PLUS, if the production experience itself is relatively positive for the crew and cast, then they will be likely to be willing to return for the next one AND they will be more willing to recommend other qualified people if they aren't available. The alternative is cutting so many corners that you and the project are not thought of in a favorable light, so that when you want to make Project #2, you'll have trouble finding people and resources to help you.

There's more to this than just getting a camera and any lights that a few hundred bucks will buy.

Brian Dzyak
Cameraman/Author
IATSE Local 600, SOC
http://www.whatireallywanttodo.com
http://www.realfilmcareer.com