I know I should know this, I have read it before, but can a few of you reiterate and explain want versus need as regards the protagonist in a screenplay? I seem to get them confused, I want to get clear on this as I do a second draft of an outline for a screenplay.
For example, say the hero / protagonist is to solve a murder, but as she goes to the village where a murder is to be solved she also finds romance. Is solving the murder the want or the need? Is finding romance the want or the need. Solving the murder is the visible external motivation for her quest, finding romance is the internal quest somewhat secondary to solving the murder but very important for making for a three dimensional character and story. Which is the need, which is the want? Would it be correct to say the hero wants to find love, but that her quest is the need to solve the murder? These two terms are used all the time in discussing screenplay writing, I want to get clear on their appropriate use. Any help appreciated.
?Beowulf
Is there a specific reason for you absolutely needing a clear cut answer? Because the terms are so subjective that you aren't going to get one.
There isn't a bold line between a need and a want. She needs to solve the murder because she is obliged to do it in her job description but she probably also wants to do it because she wants to help people/get a promotion/whatever
She probably wants the romance and may also need it because she's really depressed/has sexual frustration/whatever.
Just to say, I don't go in for all this 'hero's journey' stuff- if you stick to screenplay writing formulas like this then your film is just gonna be the same as everyone elses, why not invent your own formula?
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There's daggers in mens' smiles
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There's daggers in men's smiles
quote:
Originally posted by rizzo
if you stick to screenplay writing formulas like this then your film is just gonna be the same as everyone elses
And THAT is what engages your audience. We all love to see the same formula over and over. We thrive in it and we live in it. It's what allows us to identify with the characters. In the book, "Hero With a Thousand Faces" the writer did research on thousands of different cultures and studied story telling over thousands of years and found that that journey stuff you don't go in for is universal - that regardless of culture, geographic location or even time, we humans have been telling essentially the same story over and over. I have yet to read a good story that doesn't follow that journey. I have read stories that don't follow the formula and that I just can't follow or identify with.
However, I'm very open minded and willing to hear any new formula. You suggest we writers invent a new one. Is this something you've done? I would love to read your script with a new formula - one that you invented.
Beowulf - it seems you have it down just fine. What's confusing you?
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The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress.
Joseph Joubert, essayist (1754-1824)
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The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress.
Joseph Joubert, essayist (1754-1824)
quote:
Originally posted by certified instigator
And THAT is what engages your audience. We all love to see the same formula over and over. We thrive in it and we live in it. It's what allows us to identify with the characters.
I had never considered it like that before. The formula providing a common ground, providing the audience with a reference point from which you can build up your own story.
I should probably go away and actually do some proper reading on this subject, as I've just sort of glossed over it (that book you suggested sounds interesting).
quote:
However, I'm very open minded and willing to hear any new formula. You suggest we writers invent a new one. Is this something you've done? I would love to read your script with a new formula - one that you invented.
No I haven't. I'll let you know when I do. ?;)?
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There's daggers in mens' smiles
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There's daggers in men's smiles
quote:
Originally posted by rizzo
Is there a specific reason for you absolutely needing a clear cut answer? Because the terms are so subjective that you aren't going to get one.
Because the writers of the books and websites on screenwriting keep using the two terms and differentiating them, but I have a hard time always getting clear. Maybe it is rather arbitrary, as long as I know there are two types of want (or call it 'need' as it seems to be symantecs in the end analysis).
So here is my take on it, I think: One 'want' is for the hero's main outward goal of the story (the visible quest, such as to find the holy grail, slay the dragon, solve the myster); the other no less important 'want' is internal, emotional (find love, restore a damaged relationship, etc). The key is to have both in a story, with the first 'want'/'need' following the plot points for the story structure as outlined by many teachers; the second 'want' (emotional) permeates throughout the story, does not need to follow such clear structure, however it is just as if not more important come the end of the story.
quote:
Originally posted by certified instigator
quote:
Originally posted by rizzo
if you stick to screenplay writing formulas like this then your film is just gonna be the same as everyone elsesAnd THAT is what engages your audience. We all love to see the same formula over and over. We thrive in it and we live in it. It's what allows us to identify with the characters. In the book, "Hero With a Thousand Faces"
I am a huge believer in the Hero's Journey for story structure. It also explains a great deal about our lives, and the source of pretty much all religion (e.g Christianity is the just one of perhaps 16 religions and mythical tales from history with a virgin born crucified savior who worked miracles and rose from the dead). The author of Hero of a Thousand Faces btw for those not knowing it, is Joseph Campbell. There is even a video you can watch, several hours in length, where he is interviewed about the concepts, I might just rent and watch it again.
quote:
Originally posted by rizzo
...Just to say, I don't go in for all this 'hero's journey' stuff- if you stick to screenplay writing formulas like this then your film is just gonna be the same as everyone elses, why not invent your own formula?
The hero's journey is actually quite an established concept in storytelling, because it mimics our own human journeys. I think that is what Aristotle figured out a few thousand years ago and verbalized in his formal treatise "Poetics" which many teachers and books on screenwriting say is all we need to study to know how to write or film a good story:
?url? http://www.leeds.ac.uk/classics/resources/poetics/poettran.htm?/url?
For example, Aristotle observed that all good stories have Act I, Act II, and Act III, have a goal, dilemma, conflict, surprise twist reversal, and resolution; logical cause and effect chain of events (plot), etc.. That is really our lives if you think about it-- childhood (act I), conflicts and quests of adulthood (act II), and our last years (act III). I could ramble more, but I think all writers should at least read Aristotle's poetics-- it is the basis for comedian jokes (always with 3 acts or parts), commercials, shorts, feature films, novels, theatrical plays, etc.
Think of it as plot and sub-plot.
What he or she needs has to do with their call to action. She needs to do this to get that result.
What he or she wants is desire, that which represents their regular lives.
Ex. A woman's mother is dying. What does she need to do to resolve it?
Outside this 'call to action', what does the woman want in her life? Romance? A better job? A decent cup of coffee?
A man NEEDS to give the best pitch of his life to save his career. He WANTS to wear his lucky suit to do it.
Need is what solves their problem. Want is what feeds their soul.
A
I was thinking just the opposite. You don't always get the want, but you should get the need...unless you indulge in criminal activities, etc. The need is the internal or less-obvious goal. We being the audience often times know what the Main Character needs, but they don't know it or see it. It's not as obvious to them. The want is the external goal that we the audience see and the Main Character sees or knows. The need is what they must get. the want is what they might get.
As examples:
Scarface - His want was money...not a good want by moral standards. His need was family...take care of his mother, sister and to raise his own family. His want was not a moral want and he got what he deserved and it cost him his need. Cost them all their need.
Field of Dreams - He wanted to save his farm. He needed a second chance with his father. Since his want was a good moral want then he got them both.
Most needs are family, security, value-oriented things. Things that money cannot buy.
Citizen Cane - His need was the childhood he never had...once again he never had the family life. He had all the riches, but none of the need...he died alone in his mansion, because his want was not a morally exceptable way to attain his wealth.
Walk The Line - His need again was family related, love and respect from his father which he never got until he stood up to him in regards to his brother's death in the sawmill.
The best films are the ones where the want and need are opposing forces. Getting one will cause you to lose the other. It's great to have to make a choice.,,knowing that either choice wil cost you the other. Power and money versus the good life...the family life, security, values.
Comments?
I apologize for misspelling Cane...Kane. How dare me! I'm typing as fast as possible. LOL!
quote:
Originally posted by Kess
I was thinking just the opposite. You don't always get the want, but you should get the need.....
Comments?
(smile), I think that makes my point as to the confusion of the two terms. I think you could switch the words want and need in your original posting and get the same meaning. It seems to me to be semantics, and that the choice of using want or need is arbitrary. I think as long as the writer differentiates and uses the two terms appropriate to plot and subplot it works, that is my take on the matter.
Want assumes the character is aware of their wants and desires. They may talk about it, it's a dream or the most current challenge.
Needs is what the character really needs to fullfill their life or truly solve the current challenge. The character may not be aware of it. Often the audience is aware of it.
I believe you need the protagonist to achieve either their wants or the needs by the end of the picture. Not necessarily both. If they get neither you risk leaving the audience feeling cheated unless you are very very careful.
RJSchwarz
San Diego, CA
RJSchwarz
quote:
Originally posted by rjschwarz
...I believe you need the protagonist to achieve either their wants or the needs by the end of the picture. Not necessarily both. If they get neither you risk leaving the audience feeling cheated unless you are very very careful.
Very true! 🙂
