"Good ones" and "that are done well" is kind of subjective. If I were to type
out a list of original, indie, hobby science fiction and horror films I'm likely
to mention a lot that don't fit your criteria. And maybe a lot you have already
seen.

Once again, there are tens of thousands of movies produced each year outside
of the studio system - most are horror, a lot are Sci-Fi. Most are not only
independently produced, but independently distributed. That make's them difficult
to track. I gather you are specifically looking for movies that did not get distribution.
Am I right? So the indie movies available on Netflix don't meet your criteria? You've
seen the posts here from Scoopicman. Are his movies the type you're looking for?
Or are you specifically looking for movies made only as a hobby with no intention
of ever being distributed. Movies made only for practice?

I'm just trying to narrow down what you're looking for so I can help without telling
you about movies you've already seen.

What is it about horror that attracts indie filmmakers so forcefully? It isn't quite a genre that has any meaningful following (even for Carpenter, or Wes Craven, or similar high-profile purveyors of the genre), compared to the other, more mainstream genres. Even if we discount the obviously commercial ones (romantic comedy, action/adventure, family/children), there are still plenty more fans of an ordinary drama, thriller, documentary and other, yet indie filmmakers seem to be entranced by horror. I'm sure it isn't out of necessity (cheaper to make than action/adventure, but drama or comedy shouldn't be any expensive).

Anyone care to elaborate?

If there are more fans of drama, thriller and documentary, they
don't pay to see low budget indie versions of those genres. You'll
find very few distributors who will buy a no budget, indie, drama,
thriller or documentary. Even comedy on the indie level is a
difficult sale. Most of the small distributors do well outside of
the US. Comedy, drama, thriller and documentary don't do well in
dubbed versions.

Of course, you'll be able to point out the exceptions. But you'll
find very few. When was the last time you remember a very low
budget (say under $150,000) drama, thriller, comedy, romcom or
documentary making over $100,000,000 at the box office? Now when
was the last time you remember a very low budget (say under
$150,000) horror film making over $100,000,000 at the box office?
That's the exception, too. But there are more of those.

Comedy is difficult. Action and sci-fi is too expensive. Horror
is easy. And cheap.

Horror does have a meaningful following. the genre itself has the
following. It's one of the few genres that can reach an audience
by it's hook alone - not the director and not the stars. A good
DVD cover, a catchy hook some very attractive women in danger and
that alone can sell a movie. Low budget family films are in great
demand, especially those with a Christian theme. But few beginning
filmmakers (say 16 to 25 years old) are thinking how fun it would
be to get their friends together and make a Christian movie.

A really terrible horror film that isn't scary can sell based on
the lead woman and the promise of boobs and blood. A really
terrible comedy that isn't funny can't sell on anything but how
funny it is.

I've studied distribution for years. I just don't see independent
dramas, thrillers, comedies or documentaries drawing the audience
you say they draw.

=============================================
The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress.
Joseph Joubert, essayist (1754-1824)

quote:

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Originally posted by Vasic

What is it about horror that attracts indie filmmakers so forcefully?

---

For one thing, a lot of these movies are in demand and get noticed, without the need of name talent. They have other gimmicks to pull viewers in. Indie dramas and comedies are more reliant on very good acting and writing. Many don't sell well in non-english speaking countries, where the dialogue may not have the same meaning nor the humor the same impact.

If you are going to see a cheap indie and want to be entertained, would you rather see bad actors in a drama, or bad actors in a horror movie? Chances are, there is something visually titillating in the horror movie.

A lot of the biggest directors were launched by their horror films:

Francis (GODFATHER) Coppola - DEMENTIA 13
Steven (JURASSIC PARK) Spielberg - JAWS
James (AVATAR) Cameron - PIRANHA 2
Peter (LORD OF THE RINGS) Jackson - BAD TASTE, DEAD ALIVE
Sam (SPIDERMAN) Raimi - THE EVIL DEAD
Ridley (GLADIATOR) Scott - ALIEN
M. Night (THE LAST AIRBENDER) Shyamalan - THE SIXTH SENSE
Kathryn (THE HURT LOCKER) Bigelow - NEAR DARK
John (THE HUNT FOR RED OCTORBER) McTiernan - NOMADS

Now, let's compare some of the best known indie films made for $400 thousand or less:

PARANORMAL ACTIVITY (HD, 11k budget) Gross - Worldwide: $192,880,138

THE BLAIR WITCH PROJECT (DV, 60K budget) Gross - Worldwide: $248,639,099

NIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD (1968, 35mm, 114K budget) Gross - Worldwide: 42 million.

HALLOWEEN (35mm, 300K budget) Gross - Domestic: $47,000,000

THE TEXAS CHAINSAW MASSACRE (1974, 16mm, 140K budget) Gross - Domestic $30,859,000

EL MARIACHI (16mm, budget 7K) Gross - 2 million

CLERKS (16mm, budget 20K) Gross - 3 million

THE BROTHERS MCMULLEN (16mm, 20K budget) Gross - Domestic: $10,426,506

NAPOLEON DYNAMITE (400K budget) Gross - Worldwide: $46,118,097

According to www.boxofficemojo.com, EL MARIACHI and CLERKS made 2 million and 3 million, respectively. Yet, you get the impression that they made boatloads of money. They can't really compare to PARANORMAL or BLAIR WITCH, which have made more than 50 times the totals.

Now, NAPOLEON DYNAMITE had an impressive performance, though it didn't quite match TEXAS CHAINSAW's total, if you adjust the 1974 dollars to 1995 dollars.

Then there are the sequels to these movies. Counting the remakes, there are 11 HALLOWEENS (HALLOWEEN 3-D is coming), 12 FRIDAY THE 13THs, 10 A NIGHTMARE ON ELM STREETs, 13 WITCHCRAFT, 7 SAWs (soon). Nevermind CHUCKY, the bigger budgeted ALIEN and PREDATOR sequels, etc.

To answer the question, indie filmmakers are well aware of the potential of the horror genre. I know people writing zombie and vampire scripts, hoping to catch the TWILIGHT wave.

What is odd, is that Hollywood doesn't necessarily do better numbers, when they pump a huge budget into a horror movie, like THE WOLFMAN.

www.midnightsunent.com

quote:

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Originally posted by Aspiring mogul

Can anyone refer me to any hobby film sites or film producers?

---

quote:

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Originally posted by certified instigatorYou've
seen the posts here from Scoopicman. Are his movies the type you're looking for?

---

I'm responding a month late, but maybe he is talking about movies like mine. In fact, there are many guys/gals who shoot feature length movies, that don't have pro crews or actors. "Indie" is such a broad term, so I refer to a lot of these as guerrilla productions. By that, a lot of us didn't even have a permit and "stole" whatever shots we could, before the cops showed up!

Examples:

EXILE (2009, HD, budget 33K)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xv5MkHWEK4c

THE AWAKENING (2005, DV, budget $5,900)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRcuStrwRSY&playnext_from=TL&videos=qfleJBeQwPs

TERRARIUM (2002, 16mm, budget 23K)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otN5N42bGnw&playnext_from=TL&videos=NOIHyoWN5a4

THE BLACK CRYSTAL(1989, Super 8mm, budget 19K)
Direct link disabled:
http://www.midnightsunent.com/BLACKCRYSTAL.mov (Copy and paste preceding quicktime link into browser)

Aside from me, there are hundreds of similar filmmakers. Many never see distribution, but they had hoped to. I know people who have spent half a million and didn't get distributed. I own a lot of these; check these pics:

www.midnightsunent.com

How do Indies pay their crew if they don't make money, may I ask?

quote:

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Originally posted by Aspiring mogul

How do Indies pay their crew if they don't make money, may I ask?

---

Anyone making a feature is trying to make money. The sad fact is that 90% don't. These people will often say anything to investors to get a budget.

Those who don't get a budget will usually ask people to work for free, or for deferred payment. These people usually just shoot on weekends, when most of them are off their regular jobs.

Everybody has heard about the one movie that struck it big, so they often pin their hopes on that, which is unrealistic.

I work conventions at one of the hotels in Las Vegas. I've been at the same job, for 17 years and it's my main income.

With the exception of THE AWAKENING (which I co-produced with Kelly Johnston), I foot the bill for all my projects. I loathe the idea of begging people for money and I'll never be a great salesman, because I don't lie about the realities of this business. Then, when I do make money, it goes in my pocket and not some investor.

For our most recent movie, EXILE, my wife and I used our Home Equity line to buy 20K in HD camera/computer equipment and another 33K for the movie's budget. That included paying actors $100 per day, for a 19 day shoot. Most of the budget went to paying them, our monster maker, visual FX guy and set builders. We were supposed to have a DP, but he didn't show up, probably because we were paying so little. So, I shot the movie, minus crew. The actors did double duty, holding a mic or reflector, when not in scene.

We expected to make six figures with EXILE, but this economy has been rough on the market, so we've only sold a couple of territories and made a deal with Comcast, so far. If it's anything like TERRARIUM and THE AWAKENING, it will take a couple more years to recoup. I do expect it to profit, eventually.

www.midnightsunent.com

I can see the point... I guess, my thinking was, if most popular genre on prime-time TV is drama ("Law & Order", "CSI" and such) or comedy ("Two and a half men"), that would sort of translate to movies. What the two of you say makes sense; horror is much easier to pull off without top-notch talent than drama or comedy.

I was always curious if amateur (i.e. indie) filmmakers were able to recoup their investment these days. On the one hand, high production value seems to be much cheaper to get than before; barrier to entry into movies has been put below $1k (for a decent consumer-grade HD camcorder). In addition, there are so many more ways to promote the film with some effort and little to no expense. On the other hand, this has resulted in so many more people realising their dreams of making movies. With the abundance of white noise, how do committed indie filmmakers find their way to their audiences?

quote:

---

Anyone making a feature is trying to make money. The sad fact is that 90% don't. These people will often say anything to investors to get a budget.

---

Thanks for the insight, Scoopicman, but then why do people invest in indies?

People invest in independent film for the passion.

People invest in independent film because they
believe in the movie maker.

People invest in independent film because they
see a potential of making "Blair Witch" or "My Big
Fat Greek Wedding" money.

People invest in independent film because the
filmmaker has a good track record.

People invest in independent film because there
can be a return.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Vasic
I was always curious if amateur (i.e. indie) filmmakers were able to recoup their investment these days. On the one hand, high production value seems to be much cheaper to get than before;

---

High production value is not usually what draws
an audience. Many of the the most successful
independently produced features have fairly
low production values.

Blair Witch
Pink Flamingos
El Mariachi
Clerks

I believe horror movie fans often find a love of the genre that is mostly unknown to other genres. Few teens will watch Law and Order and come out wanting to be a filmmaker (they might want to be a lawyer but that's different). Horror leaves you wondering how they did something, and in most cases it can be repeated on a reasonable budget with a lot of imagination which is one of the things teens are full of.

Also horror lends itself to a small cast in a secluded location which is the easiest dynamic to ensure you finish the film.

RJSchwarz

quote:

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Originally posted by Aspiring mogul
Thanks for the insight, Scoopicman, but then why do people invest in indies?

---

The number one reason is to get a script produced. Writers are desperate to see their work on screen, even if it doesn't strike gold. (Though they hope that their baby will.) Hollywood is a million to one shot, while indies are accessible. Certified Instigator covered most of the the other reasons.

Back when the economy was good, it was pretty easy to rack up sales, if you had something worth pushing. My friend, Christian, makes the RECON 2020 movies. The first RECON had a 50K budget and sold more than 20 countries (each territory pays for their region), racking up over $200,000. Not bad for a little movie, shot on DV. He did even better on the sequels, turning RECON into what will probably be a million dollar franchise. On the other hand the economy dropped like a rock and he talks about the effects on indie sales, here:

http://movieseals.blogspot.com/2010/02/is-future-of-independent-films-mere.html

Some people were in fact making good money and those are the track records that should be sought out by investors, especially if the market picks up.

I don't know if you are anywhere near Las Vegas, but these are the kind of people that you'll find at next month's IndieMeet, an informal event that I host, once a year. It might be an eye opener, if you're interested:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2femfFH_3I

www.midnightsunent.com

quote:

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Originally posted by rjschwarz

I believe horror movie fans often find a love of the genre that is mostly unknown to other genres. Few teens will watch Law and Order and come out wanting to be a filmmaker (they might want to be a lawyer but that's different). Horror leaves you wondering how they did something, and in most cases it can be repeated on a reasonable budget with a lot of imagination which is one of the things teens are full of.

Also horror lends itself to a small cast in a secluded location which is the easiest dynamic to ensure you finish the film.

---

That's a great summation! All you need is a couple of hot bodies and a cabin in the woods. :>)

Admittedly, I was one of those, who was fascinated by horror. PHANTASM and ALIEN inspired me to save up for a Super 8mm camera and I was making movies, the next year. I still haven't made an all out horror feature, but I made dozens of short films. Some pics:

Fangs (1981)

Werewolf victim (1982)

Werewolf gets shot:

Man melting (1985)

Hand attack (1987)

Hand jumps on my face:

Face rip off (1988)

Face on fire:

Now, those are hobby films! All these years later, I'm still a Fangoria subscriber and horror buff.

www.midnightsunent.com

$200 K for a $50 K movie looks good, because at least you're not losing money. I'd be interested in learning more about this smaller market, because that's within my budget. 🙂

Is there a difference between an indie and a hobbyist?

IMHO: YES.

Hobbyists have different motivation on filmmaking. Can a Hobbyist turn into a indie filmmaker? Of course..but i would definately distinquish the two. Hobbyists are not as dedicated or focused on getting a return on creating a film..just as all hobbist..they may WANT to make money on the filmmaking one day.. but they do it for themselves, with friends and themselves as the audience.....

Indie filmmakers, from my experience have enough experience, skill, technical.. to create a low budget film with a soild group of indiviuals weather its a small group..and would have the goal and experience and network to produce MANY films..

You probably would not want to form a production company if you did not take filmmaking seriously...it is a completely different dedication...nor would you be worried about an audience..you create for yourself, with you and yourfriends as the audience..IMHO its harder to create a "GOOD" film on a lower budget, then have a lot of mula and create a good film..it takes more skill to write a excellent story for lower budget then a higher budget....its like making anything..how far are you willing to take it? if your a painter, and love to do it..but would you take it to the next level and become a known painter? Have own business painting? Or even own gallery? Not if your just a hobbyist..