There is also a misunderstanding when someone comes
to a forum like this to ask about equipment. Many times
people answer the question about cameras or equipment
by reminding the new filmmaker they need a good script.
Often the new filmmaker has a script and is now interested
in the production stuff.

Excellent post, Shane. But a poor lead. At some point a new
filmmaker deens to think about the production stuff.

=============================================
The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress.
Joseph Joubert, essayist (1754-1824)

CI:

I agree with you that most participants here come with a script already in their head (or laptop). We still need to keep driving it home that there is a difference between a script and a good script. And more importantly, that they can figure out by themselves if that script is actually good by properly analysing it and trimming the fat whenever and wherever possible.

But those equipment questions seem to be by far the most popular here. Almost every week, there is a "Which camera?" thread.

Exactly. Which is why I mentioned that Shane's post was excellent.

And I'm certain that many (if not most) new filmmakers do not have
a great script. I was a freelance reader for several years, of the more
than 2,000 script I covered for major prodCo's and studios (Bruckheimer,
Disney, Paramount) and mini-majors (New Line, Lionsgate) I don't think
I read 200 excellent scripts.

It's much more difficult to get good advice on your script than it is on
the camera. Most new filmmakers already have the story and script they
want to make so they ask about the production stuff. Good or not, they
want to narrow down the camera choices more than they want to discuss
their story and script.

I guess I'm coming from a different perspective; I've always been an amateur director, looking for good scripts to make. Even when I wrote something myself, I always sought out advice on how to re-work it to make it better. Meanwhile, it was always easy to google up solid, reliable information regarding equipment. For me, I had no need to ask "Which camera?" when the question has been answered millions of times, on dozens of different sites and forums, and for every conceivable scenario. There aren't all that many different variables to consider when choosing a camera, and the only real moving target is the constantly marching technology, which gives us new cameras every year. Luckily, these things are always discussed to death as soon as they arrive, so for me, it was easy to dig up all the necessary info in order to make my choices.

It always irritates me when someone comes to some forum and posts a question that has: 1. already been answered on that same forum, and; 2. can be easily, correctly and extensively answered by googling it. When I post a question somewhere, it is usually after spending an hour unsuccessfully googling it. Suffice it to say, while there may be thousands of my posts on various forums online, there will be only one or two that are questions (so far). All my other questions were always answered by googling. Those that weren't were related to my own very specific problems (for example, with a script; that one was not on this forum, though).

And on the subject of screenwriting, I have to say, I have always struggled to recognise good from bad. I'm not talking about the overall structure of the story line, plot, development, etc. My problem is figuring out why a scene is badly written, how to recognise poorly written dialogue, etc. In one of Syd Field's books, I remember reading a fairly short scene (something about a girl waking up late for work, looking around and talking to herself and hurriedly getting ready). The scene sounded perfectly fine to me, but the next paragraph of Syd's text said "That was an example of a badly written scene". The text then proceeds not to deconstruct the scene and explain why it was bad, but continues with the assumption that every reader has recognised how bad it was, and then goes on to provide general advice how to write good engaging scene and dialogue, what clichés to avoid and so on.

As a classically trained musician, I can easily recognise a poorly orchestrated score or poorly written melody, harmony progression, or other structural problems. Watching many movies and reading many scripts simply does not improve your ability to recognise what professionals seem to be able to immediately identify as badly written text. Apparently, a special skill (or perhaps talent) is required for this ability. I'm hoping it is just a skill (which can be acquired), and not a talent (which you either have or not).

Your post is exactly why these kinds of forums are great.
different people with different perspectives.

You would never come to a forum and ask about cameras, but you
would ask about making a script better. I would never ask how to
make my script better, but would ask about cameras.

My perspective on the "Which camera" question is while it's easy
to use Google, that kind of research doesn't always return a
personal connection with other camera owners. Some people are
satisfied with technical specs. Some are overwhelmed by the
numbers (I know I am) and want a more personal perspective. Many
just want to connect with fellow filmmakers. A Google search for
cameras turns up forums.

We each come to filmmaking in a slightly different way. You really
shouldn't let a method different from yours irritate you.

I personally test a lot of cameras. As a pro operator I am
fortunate to be able to test drive even low end consumer cameras.
I don't mind answering the question. I always remember when I was
getting started and finally came across a pro who was willing to
take the time. They changed my life. Until then I had only gotten
the "Do your own research, kid." answer. So I'm happy to answer
the question. Most of the time I think it doesn't matter, but every
once in a while I know I actually help someone.

I like doing that.

Vasic,

I know what you are talking about with Syd Field, in that particlur scene, He was trying to teach that Visually internal dialogue by a character can't be shown on screen very easily.

I Remember back, When I went to film school (years ago) we were learning about Akira Kurosawa films, and our professor, had us do a short where we used environment to show mood. That was a struggle, but it really did help me as a writer understand the impact of setting on the mood, and pacing of the film.

Also, We learned that Kurosawa, advised young film makers to read as widely as possible. "In order to write scripts, you must study the great novels and dramas of the world. You must consider why they are great." Not surprisingly, Kurosawa drew heavily from literature in his work, particularly Russian literature. Even when he wrote a original script, a Russian connection sometimes existed: when he was getting ready to write the script for Ikiru, he told one of his collaborators, Oguni(i think), that he wished to use Tolstoys novella, The Death of Ivan Ilyich, as the basis of the screenplay.

Myfilm"Shadow of Crime"
Trailer:
http://www.vimeo.com/4103913
Where to buy:Shadow of crime
https://www.createspace.com/288191

CI:

Man, I admire your patience. Perhaps I'm just too old to be patient anymore...

I may have come across as a bit too grumpy, getting irritated simply by people seeking information, connection and personal experience. It is just when the questions that keep coming are practically identical, and the answers provided are also the same, I feel we're all needlessly duplicating effort and wasting someone's valuable time, good will and patience. People like you will have enough patience to keep repeating answers to same questions, while guys like myself will get a bit frustrated. I guess the only real beef I have is with those who don't bother looking anything up at all, but instead just post a question and sit there waiting for an answer. I really have no problem with those genuinely seeking more than just random experiences, in-depth professional tests and tech specs. It's the lazy ones that get to me, and I think it isn't hard to spot those, with their poor, bastardised English and a sense of entitlement...

I understand, Vasic. You are in the vast majority.

I dont see it as repetitive, practically identical or a waste of
valuable time. Sure, you and I see the same questions over and
over and over, but to the person asking its the very first time.
Maybe they have done research, not found what theyre looking for
and discovered a forum with real people to ask. And maybe they are
just too lazy to research.

I think most are too lazy. But just in case, I like to answer.
Even if its only one in 10 who get what they need, thats good
enough for me.

You come to these forums to get some information and to offer the
help you can and to join in on the discussions we get going every
once in a while. That isnt wasting your time. You dont like to
answer the camera question over and over so you dont. Dont let
em get to you.

My primary job is in show development for Walt Disney
Imagineering. I spend some of my year traveling from Disney park
to park watching the shows and making sure the show we put in 10,
15, 20 years ago - or 6 months or 3 years - is exactly the same
show. Actors get bored because its the same thing over and over
and over for them. But to the audience its either the very first
time theyve seen it, or they remember it when they saw it 5 or 10
or 15 years ago and want to see the same show they saw then. That
could be where I get my patience.

And I very much remember the people I asked about cameras (and
filmmaking) who told me they were tired of answering the same
question over and over. I remember wishing I had gotten to them
before they lost patience.

I dont wanna be that guy.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Vasic
As a classically trained musician, I can easily recognise a poorly orchestrated score or poorly written melody, harmony progression, or other structural problems. Watching many movies and reading many scripts simply does not improve your ability to recognise what professionals seem to be able to immediately identify as badly written text. Apparently, a special skill (or perhaps talent) is required for this ability. I'm hoping it is just a skill (which can be acquired), and not a talent (which you either have or not).

---

It's a little of both Vasic, just like musicianship. Some people can just play, some people need to be instructed. Often enough, the end result is the same.

I'm micro-analytical and scrutinizing scenes is just a part of my nature (it's actually largely how I improve as well, I do something and directly analyze what I could do better, and why). In my AP English class, I thrived because the course facilitated that "talent," if you will. But the class also instructed how to approach literary analysis, it taught how to understand intricate meaning and detect the crucial subtleties. So, we were all very capable readers by the end of that class.

But, like Rjames mentioned, sometimes it just comes down to perspective. From one perspective, one scene is great because of its fun, bubbly writing. On the other hand, the scene features inconsistent characters that would be jarring to an audience. Works from one side, doesn't to another.

----------
http://vimeo.com/corax

I for one went into production before the screenplay was ready and have regretted it ever since. Sometimes you don't have a choice, but usually you do.

RJSchwarz

quote:

---

Originally posted by rjschwarz

I for one went into production before the screenplay was ready and have regretted it ever since. Sometimes you don't have a choice, but usually you do.

RJSchwarz

---

Sounds like you did the "ready, fire, aim" method. ?:)? That's not always bad...but it's rarely good either. Kinda like you pointed out.

By the way...thanks for the positive (and negative) comments about my post.

Good luck to you and yours in all you do.

Peace,

Shane

I agree that many people have a story, good or bad and want to figure out how to put it on screen. I'm a noob and although I google and read other post quite a bit, sometimes I appreciate a quik answer that gives me exactly what I need.

Also I think alot of people don't share the script ideas because they don't want to share their ideas with the world, especially if they've read all the WGA information and stuff dealing with protecting your idea, i.e. as it is stated by wordplayer.com

BTW someone here told me about wordplayer.com and I have to suggest it again to anyone out there that is dealing with screenwriting in anyway.

Tryin' to live the dream, any advice?

You have to get to grips with story and structure (see http://www.clickok.co.uk/index4.html ).

But the script itself doesn't have to be "perfect" if you're the one filming it (if you're selling it, you need to tend it towards perfection).

But if you're filming your own script, then as long as you know what the function of each scene is, the actual filmming will tell you if it works or not. Same with dialogue.

So there is a difference between knowing your script and knowing your story / perfect script and perfect story.

The hardest bit for me is making the scenes flow from one to the other - not seem to jump from one to the next.

So much depends on improvised information to feed strategy. Who the actors finally are, their natures, the location etc.

Then there is the problem of depth, which I relate to the A-story, B-story etc. Most scenes must contain messages to the various story lines, so preparation is vital. Which detracts from the ability to improvise completely.

It's one of the only art forms where there is such a high degree of structure required, yet a high degree of improvisation too.

Anyway, if you start filming without a well-understood guideline, it will tend to turn out ineffective or seem "simple."

My two-cents.