quote:

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Originally posted by Riverboat55

on the market today?

HD or SD doesn't matter.

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Define "best." Please.

What precisely do you need the camera to do? What "bells and whistles" can you live without? What are you shooting that you need to purchase a camera in the first place? Where is your final product going?

Brian Dzyak
Cameraman/Author
IATSE Local 600, SOC
http://www.whatireallywanttodo.com
http://www.realfilmcareer.com

Well, $350 doesn't buy too much of a camcorder. Not new, not even used. Even the cheapest reasonably decent HD camcorders (I'm not talking 'Flip mino' and similar) are at least $500. Perhaps a used Canon HV-20 or HV-30 (these seem to be quite popular with amateur/indie film makers).

Before any decision is made, though, you'll need to answer Brian's questions.

For short film or presentational projects.

Doesn't necessarily need to be HD but image quality is highest priority, for the price. Image stabilization would be preferable, and decent indoor/outdoor performance.

Hi Riverboat. Welcome to filmmaking.net.

In the $1,000 and under range all cameras are pretty much the
same. A Sony is like a Sharp is like a Canon is like a Panasonic
is like Samsung. You can go to any Best Buy and pick up a camera
in that price range and you wont be able to tell the difference.
The current price range for a good starter camera with the
necessary features is closer to $1,500 with several a few hundred
under that.

What you will be missing in your price range are manual controls
over focus, iris, exposure and white balance. This means the camera
itself sets all those things. Great for convenience and for home movies
but not good for decent indoor/outdoor performance. And you won't
have a mic input. That's extremely important. You want to be able
to get a mic very close to the actors to get decent audio.

But if that's all you can afford and you don't want to wait until you
get a little more money take a look at the Sony DCR-HC36, Canon
ZR500, Panasonic PV-GS180, Panasonic SDR-H60. All the Flip
cameras are in your price range, even the HD cameras.

Check out these threads:
http://www.filmmaking.net/fnetforum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9693
http://www.filmmaking.net/fnetforum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9634
http://www.filmmaking.net/fnetforum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8313
http://www.filmmaking.net/fnetforum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8213
http://www.filmmaking.net/fnetforum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7034
http://www.filmmaking.net/fnetforum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6195
http://www.filmmaking.net/fnetforum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6316
http://www.filmmaking.net/fnetforum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4527

If you have more questions, feel free to ask.

=============================================
The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress.
Joseph Joubert, essayist (1754-1824)

Thanks for the descriptive post. I looked at those cameras you suggested, and on first glance they have many negative reviews on amazon. What about the sony cx100, samsung smx-k40, or canon fs200?

Neither the Canon or the Sony have a mic input. The Samsung does.

How are the reviews on Amazon for those cameras? Seem like they are what you're looking for?

I don't know, their video quality doesn't seem impressive. This morning I found the Canon VIXIA HF200, which video samples are more appealing, yet is more expensive.

quote:

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Originally posted by Riverboat55

I don't know, their video quality doesn't seem impressive. This morning I found the Canon VIXIA HF200, which video samples are more appealing, yet is more expensive.

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You get what you pay for. There's no way around it.

So, I really don't know what you have in mind as far as projects go, but why don't you consider renting on an as-needed basis? You can typically get higher quality equipment for less money than it takes to purchase... plus, you don't have the maintenance costs or the cost to upgrade on the project-to-project basis. It's likely that every project will have different requirements and not just a camera... but lighting and support gear for the lights and camera... and SOUND... do you have that in the budget? Arguably, sound is more important than a top-of-the-line picture.

Brian Dzyak
Cameraman/Author
IATSE Local 600, SOC
http://www.whatireallywanttodo.com
http://www.realfilmcareer.com

Yep. You get what you pay for.

In the under $1,000 range camera makers are going after the family
vacation/birthday/babys first step/kid-in-a-play user. So they
spend money on still picture options, image stabilization, auto
focus and exposure, and use a very cheap lens. The point and
shoot image quality isnt going to be impressive at all.

But even with a camera in your price range, if you learn to light
well, learn creative camera placement, use a tripod for static
shots and make very smooth moving shots, your movies will look
more professional.

And excellent audio is a MUST - as Brian mentions. Just by
plugging a shotgun mic into the camera and getting it close to the
actors, you will be a step above many short films made.

The problem with the HF200 is no mic input. To me that makes it
useless for making short films regardless of its image quality.

quote:

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Originally posted by certified instigator

Yep. You get what you pay for.

In the under $1,000 range camera makers are going after the family
vacation/birthday/babys first step/kid-in-a-play user. So they
spend money on still picture options, image stabilization, auto
focus and exposure, and use a very cheap lens. The point and
shoot image quality isnt going to be impressive at all.

But even with a camera in your price range, if you learn to light
well, learn creative camera placement, use a tripod for static
shots and make very smooth moving shots, your movies will look
more professional.

And excellent audio is a MUST - as Brian mentions. Just by
plugging a shotgun mic into the camera and getting it close to the
actors, you will be a step above many short films made.

The problem with the HF200 is no mic input. To me that makes it
useless for making short films regardless of its image quality.

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I double checked and the HF series do have mic inputs CI. Obviously not xlrs, but there's 1/8" inputs on those things. Isn't hard to throw on a few adapters for 1/8->1/4 then 1/4->XLR, even if it looks a bit frankenstein.

And in any case, the onboard mics on consumer camcorders are getting better all the time. Now, if you want to isolate a sound (like an actor's voice) or record sound from far away or just be able to control the sound recording, built-in isn't the way to go. But for most consumer situations (like the "presentations" Riverboat is describing) it's generally more than fine to use the on-board. That's my opinion, at any rate.

Riverboat, I'd recommend you check out the Flip too. To me, the camcorders you'll be looking at are in the under $500 or under $1000 category. the Flip is one of the few sub-$500 camcorders with HD, but is still aimed at the lowest end of consumers (in terms of how much they're willing to spend). Start there, check out examples, and determine what quality of video you'll really need or want as you move up.

The Canon FS200 does indeed have a mic input. I use mine with the Ride Videomic with pretty good results.

quote:

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Originally posted by certified instigator

Neither the Canon or the Sony have a mic input. The Samsung does.

How are the reviews on Amazon for those cameras? Seem like they are what you're looking for?

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The HF20 is the only one I've seen so far that looks decent. All the others look barely a step up from the movie mode on my TZ1 digital camera. What bothers me the most is when I see the choppy frame rate-- what's the point of recording motion if this is a problem.

Thanks for the tips

quote:

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Originally posted by Corax

I double checked and the HF series do have mic inputs CI.

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And I double checked. You're right. It's nice to see
so many small, inexpensive cameras with mic inputs.

Vixia HF 20 is identical to the cheaper HF-200 in everything except onboard memory, which HF-200 doesn't have. The price difference much more than what you'd pay for the comparable SDHC memory card. I don't think I'd ever want to buy a camcorder with built-in flash memory when an identical model without it is available. It's a waste of money. In this case, the price difference is $150 for 32GB of memory. For that much money, you could buy around 80GB worth of SDHC cards (5 16GB cards at $30 or so).