quote:

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Originally posted by JRLegend
I don't care about short films, they're worthless.

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I would like your take on this aspect of filmmaking.

I (and others) have learned a lot by making short films. For me,
starting out making short films (and I did start of film) allowed
me to make mistakes, learn about visual storytelling (as a writer
and director), learn about casting and scheduling cast and crew,
learn a little about cameras and lighting and sound.

When I finally made my first feature I feel I was a little better prepared
than if I had jumped right in without making some short films.

I'm interested in your opinion on this.

=============================================
The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress.
Joseph Joubert, essayist (1754-1824)

Great!

I knew that would stir the pot.

Now, my perspective is purely a business perspective. So let me ask you two questions.

1. How much did you spend on your short films?

2. How much did you make from them?

If you spent your own money, and you and your friends, some interns maybe, got together to do these films with no intent of it being seen by an acquisition exec who leaps from his chair saying, "Gentlemen, we have a hit on our hands," then I hope you see it as a great investment in your education. Because that's exactly what it was, and a better education than most get from 4 yrs. at UCLA at that. (No offense if you attended UCLA.)

I will go into greater detail into this on my blog, but the bottom line is - "Shorts don't make money." At least now they don't. True, you hear "Cinderella" stories like how Napoleon Dynamite started out as a short and MTV floated them a few hundred thou to make a feature. But as filmmakers, or in any industry really, we can't live by the dream of becoming the next Napoleon Dynamite.

In today's era of technology, a filmmaker can produce a feature length film, digital or tape, for well under $5K. (You can also produce a 35mm film, for about 5K using tried and tried and true Hitchcock tricks and techniques).

If you want great hands on experience with coordinating actor's, crew, budgets, scripts, everything...do a feature. Not only can you raise more money to produce a feature, but you can give yourself a paycheck while you're learning.

Features have a better chance of getting better actors (Unless you are close to a college with a strong theater/film program)

Features have a better chance of making it into a major film festival.

Features have a better chance of getting picked up by a distributor.

Features have a better chance of making money online as you charge visitors to watch it in a streaming video format.

And on and on...

Honestly, it all boils down to script.

If you have a great script that can handle low budget, i.e. dressed up stage play (90 min., one set, one location or even two or three within a few blocks of each other - "Reservoir Dogs," "Dan in Real Life," "Rear Window," "Meet the Parents," "Panic Room," "Friday the 13th" and every other slasher film, courtroom drama and family reunion movie out there. See, even Hollywood knows how to make a cheap movie), then odds are you will not only gain a great education and solid experience but you have a better chance of making a profit to put into another film or to show potential investors, "Hey, we know how to make a profitable film."

A lot of filmmakers get offended when I tell them they're wasting their money on a short because many of them have put so much money into producing them. "That's what you're supposed to do, right?" "That's what everyone else does, right?"

If you're making shorts to learn without putting too much at risk, or you've got the money and you want to have a little fun, great.

But when it comes down to it, the risk takers are the success makers. In any business.

Shorts don't sell, and if you want to get noticed, get any financing and make any money in this business, you have to show that you know how to pick a marketable script, shoot on time and on budget, take the risk and make a feature.

My philosophy is if you're going to do it, do it. If you want to make movies, get your education (the information) and put it to work making real movies.

Don't play with shorts, play with features. Know how to hire competent professionals that will give investors more confidence.

Obviously, I can go on and on...and I will, but not here.

If you feel the investment you, or others, made in your short films was totally worth it. I can't argue with you. You did what was right by you. And for you it was the right thing.

But, and forgive me but I can only assume at this point because I don't know the specifics, if you spent the same amount of money and effort that you spent on all of your shorts combined on a feature, I can almost guarantee that you'd be much further along in your education, experience and success.

Thank you for starting out with a great question. I'm thrilled that you have moved on to features now! I wish you all the success in the world.

As always, your friend in filmmaking,

J. R. Legend

Tell me your biggest filmmaking challenge at <b> http://FilmSchoolSavings.com</b>

Let me kick your butt into gear at <b> http://JRLegend.com</b>

One more thing...

If you have the right information, anyone, regardless of experience, with talent and the work ethic, can make a feature length film.

(And here comes the plug, not a shameless one, but it is a plug nonetheless --)

That's why it is so important to go to http://FilmSchoolSavings.com and take advantage of our pre-launch promotion.

This is the only course I have found that truly puts the puzzle together for the filmmaker from the novice to the experienced. Even if you're experienced, and know a lot of what's being taught, the course we are offering from the Hollywood Film Institute will fill in the blanks that are keeping you from success. But only if you're teachable.

As always, your friend in filmmaking,

J. R. Legend

Tell me your biggest filmmaking challenge at <b> http://FilmSchoolSavings.com</b>

Let me kick your butt into gear at <b> http://JRLegend.com</b>

Well, I don?t think a pot was stirred - certainly not my intention
- and I took no offense. My only intention with my question was
to hear your point of view on the subject.

quote:

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Now, my perspective is purely a business perspective. So let me ask you two questions.

1. How much did you spend on your short films?

2. How much did you make from them?

---

My first 20 or so made no money. I started at about 11 years old
making films (super 8) with no intention of turing a profit. I
didn?t keep track of the money spent - but is was just about
every cent of pocket change, birthday and Christmas money I got.
As I got older (into my mid-teens) I realized I was pretty good so
I got more serious. About learning - not about making money from
my films. And then spent almost every cent I earned on my after
school jobs working in the local post production audio studio.

I made three ?serious? (16mm) short films in my late teens/early
twenties. I think the money I spent was around $4,000, maybe
$5,000 for all three. I think I made about $6,500 from the second
one and about $4,000 from the third. I don?t think the first one
made any money (under $1,000), but I won several awards in over a
dozen festivals.

Bottom line, I used short films to learn. Not to turn a profit.
And my second one made enough money, won enough awards and played
in enough festivals that I attracted investors for my first
feature. So I feel making shorts films isn?t worthless.

quote:

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If you want great hands on experience with coordinating actor's, crew, budgets, scripts, everything...do a feature. Not only can you raise more money to produce a feature, but you can give yourself a paycheck while you're learning.

---

This sounds great. You must of been one of the few who were able
to raise enough money to make a feature and get a paycheck your
first time out. Just like the ?Napoleon Dynamite? story happens
but not often, I believe very few young filmmakers can raise enough money for a feature with no previous experience - experience
making short films for example.

I know I couldn?t. When I was getting the hands on experience with
coordinating actors, crew, budgets, scripts, everything.... on my
short films between the ages of 17 and 20 no one was too
interested in financing a feature from me. Nor paying me to learn.

In my experience that?s an unrealistic expectation.

?Don't play with shorts, play with features.? Sounds great. But my
experience is very different from yours. Playing with shorts was
a great way to move to features. I gained valuable experience and
contacts while making short films that really helped when I shot
my first feature. Far from worthless, I learned a lot.

I disagree with you that if I had used the $5,000 or so I spent on
my three short films on a feature, I would currently be much
further along in my education, experience and success. I feel it
was the three short films (and the money spent) that moved me
along in my education, experience and success.

But I understand that since you had success moving directly to
features without making any short films you would recommend that
method.

I made shorts (and music videos) first, so that would be my
recommendation to my fellow new filmmakers.

But it doesn?t sound as if you really think making shorts is
worthless. Only that there isn?t a market for them. So there - it
seems - is where you and I can agree. Am I correct?

=============================================
The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress.
Joseph Joubert, essayist (1754-1824)

CI,

You're absolutely correct. No market.

You also hit the nail on the head when you mentioned Napoleon Dynamite. You can't keep trying to be filmmaking's next "Cinderella story."

You're also right about the fact that no one is going to give a teenager $$ to shoot a full length film. So being a young, very young filmmaker as you were, you took the best route.

As a kid, I did the same thing myself. Took out the old VHS camcorder and started writing and shooting with my friends.

But look at Tarantino. He shot one short back in '87 that took him nowhere. The final reel was destroyed in a fire in the editing lab, and what was left was not good at all. So he went back to work at the video store.

He had the raw talent, but what he didn't know was:

1. How to write a marketable, low budget feature length script

2. Who to hire 1st, how to use them to raise money and when (very important)

3. How to find people with $$

4. How, where and when to present the offering to the potential investor(s)
a. What to offer, pitching the story, etc.

5. How to pitch the entire project in language the investors understand.

6. How to shoot on budget and on schedule, etc, or how to hire the people who can.

With the exception of shooting on budget and on schedule, these things can't be learned by making shorts. Most film school grads don't even know this stuff. They've got the theory down, but not the fundamentals of real indie filmmaking.

All the information one needs, whether they have experience or not (talent & drive, yes...you need that) to create a marketable feature length film can be taught and learned in 2 or 3 days.

Now back to Tarantino.

Once he took a 2 Day audio filmmaking course presented by the Hollywood Film Institute's founder, Dov Simens, Tarantino wrote the script, hired his key people, got the investors together, pitched it...and 'Reservoir Dogs' was born. The rest is history.

He jumped from shooting a sloppy short film to becoming an Indie Filmmaking idol!

No shorts, just knowledge...the right kind. This wasn't luck, it was knowledge meeting talent.

If you don't have the skills to pitch a project, partner with someone who does! If you don't have the gift of organization and meeting deadlines, hire a PM, or Line Producer, and 1st AD who does.

Trust me, an investor doesn't care if you, personally, have run a production before. A studio will, which is why you'll never get any money from them for your first films. Your job is convincing the investors you understand the business and have people on board with the experience to make it happen and "sell the sizzle."

You don't need a lot of money to produce your first indie feature. 5K - 20K. You can easily get that yourself if you know how to package the deal properly. If your 20K feature does well, then you'll be able to get 200K. After 200K, you'll be able to get 2M, then 20M...get the picture? That's how you go from "Swingers" to "Go" to "The Bourne Identity" (Doug Liman).

Spike Lee took the exact same filmmaking course that Tarantino did. Lee finally understood it, stopped making shorts, Dropped Out! of NYU, and shot 'She's Gotta Have It.'

So for all up and coming filmmakers, do short films when you're a teenager and learn the "art"...then learn the business and do features when you're an adult.

Most filmmakers consider themselves artists and dread the business of movie making. They don't have the desire or the ability to pitch the project in the way investors understand.

I've recently decided, as part of the promotion of the launch of my website, FilmSchoolSavings.com, to open my book of investors and pitch to them the projects of qualified indie filmmakers. The filmmaker must meet certain deadlines, criteria and other "quality assurance" requirements before I act as their executive producer...and producing short films will not one of them.

I didn't have any more access to $$ than you or anyone else does. Like Tarantino and Lee, I was taught where to find it and how to present it.

J. R. Legend

Tell me your biggest filmmaking challenge at <b> http://FilmSchoolSavings.com</b>

Let me kick your butt into gear at <b> http://JRLegend.com</b>

No market for short films? I disagree.
The internet audience is always hungry for short, original content, with many sites willing to pay you for it. You even have many cable channels now airing shorts 24/7.
Sure, you won't make millions, but maybe recoup some of the money you spent on your film. And with equipment becoming more affordable (hell you can even shoot a half decent short on a phone!) your expenses aren't going to be huge to begin with.

Short films are probably more versatile and marketable right now than ever before, and I doubt that'll change for a while.

?:)?

I have been making short films since I was eight. I've never made any money, but I never spent any either. Sure I've spent some money on cheap editing software, and a cheap camera, but that's $350 on a hobby that's lasted seven years and couting. Most of them are crappy, I'll be the first one to admit it, but in the last year or so I've learned a ton. I'm still not great, but I've still got time. So short films are not worthless, just because you may have outgrown them, doesn't mean they're not a valuable resource to learn some tricks, and find your style for young filmmakers to learn from.

"I think anyone who knows how to mod a Nerf gun is a
bad-ass." -Leaf-o, The Angry Aardvark (www.angryaardvark.netfreehost.com)

quote:

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Originally posted by Pikada

No market for short films? I disagree.
The internet audience is always hungry for short, original content, with many sites willing to pay you for it. You even have many cable channels now airing shorts 24/7.
Sure, you won't make millions, but maybe recoup some of the money you spent on your film. And with equipment becoming more affordable (hell you can even shoot a half decent short on a phone!) your expenses aren't going to be huge to begin with.

Short films are probably more versatile and marketable right now than ever before, and I doubt that'll change for a while.

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This is good news.

How many short films have you purchased in the last few months and
where did your buy them?
What cable channels are now airing shorts 24/7? Do they pay for content?
What internet sites are paying filmmakers for their short films?

=============================================
The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress.
Joseph Joubert, essayist (1754-1824)

I haven't bought any short films myself, certified. And many of the sites and channels have various ways of paying for the content - Adverts, Per Views etc.

Here's a few websites:

?url? http://www.atomfilms.com/home.jsp?/url?
?url? http://revver.com/?/url?
?url? http://www.metacafe.com/?/url?

Some Channels:
?url? http://current.com/?/url?
?url? http://www.propellertv.co.uk/?/url?

Downloadable content via Mobile Phones:
?url? http://www.wildlight.tv/?/url?

?url? http://www.futureshorts.com/?/url?

I agree with you JR legend that shorts will not make a good profit unless you are VERY lucky however i think CI is right when he said starting off gives you invaluable experience. Most people cant afford or do not have the time and resources to make a feature first. Also a short gives you experience and you can learn from your mistakes. Making mistakes is how you learn and it is less damaging to make a mistake in a 30 min short then a feature film. Also it is ALL about the script and the experence of the crew as this makes the movie. A short with a good script will Always be better then a feature with no story. Shorts are an excellent way to learn and start off - its the same in everything in life you cant jump straight in the deep end (sorry for the cheesy metaphor but it is true!!)

Thanks
Rob - UK

quote:

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Originally posted by Pikada

No market for short films? I disagree.
The internet audience is always hungry for short, original content, with many sites willing to pay you for it. You even have many cable channels now airing shorts 24/7....

---

Pikada

The realm of the Internet is still "Undiscovered Country" for filmmakers. The possibilities are endless but so are the possible dangers, i.e. copyright infringements, piracy of your hard work.

As you mentioned there are sites that pay for content. YouTube even has a system to pay anyone for "episodic" style content to encourage visitors to keep coming back to their site.

If you want to tackle this market and you're able to earn some green from it...go for it.

And here's the big "BUT..."

Be smart when entering this market.

Rule 1. Don't spend more than what you anticipate on making. If you find success in an online niche, you can invest whatever you make back into future "webisodes" to improve quality and quantity.

Rule 2. Whatever you create, make sure you don't care whether or not it gets pirated. Because if it's good, it will. Make sure the music you use and any other content is original and not copyrighted. You can get into biiig trouble.

The Internet is truly the new frontier for filmmaking, and it will take pioneers who are willing to suffer for their mistakes and learn from successes to pave the way.

I believe in the future of movies and the Internet and my company is now in development on a feature designed strictly for Internet release. You have to know who you are targeting, the marketing angles, the partnerships and joint ventures that should be established to make it work.

The creators of "The Blair Witch Project" used the Internet to create a huge following even before the film was released.

I could write a whole book on this topic, but to keep it simple, if you want to explore ways to generate money from shorts, the Internet is your only resource. (Your films just can't suck)

J. R. Legend

Tell me your biggest filmmaking challenge at <b> http://FilmSchoolSavings.com</b>

Let me kick your butt into gear at <b> http://JRLegend.com</b>

quote:

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Originally posted by robmanu7

...Also it is ALL about the script and the experence of the crew as this makes the movie. A short with a good script will Always be better then a feature with no story. Shorts are an excellent way to learn and start off - its the same in everything in life you cant jump straight in the deep end (sorry for the cheesy metaphor but it is true!!)

Thanks
Rob - UK

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Rob,

Don't worry about the cheez, my friend, I use quite a lot myself.

I understand the feeling of safety that a budding filmmaker finds in filming shorts.

You are 100% correct when you say it's "all about the script." But here's where I hope to steer everyone away from the traditional way of thinking to break you out of the filmmaker rat race.

What you stated next "A short with a good script will Always be better then a feature with no story," is the predominate mentality among young, and even seasoned, filmmakers (notice I didn't say successful...of course the definition of success differs from person to person).

So, based on this premise, let me ask the following questions.

1. If you can write, or find, a great script for a short film, why can't you write or find one for a feature film?

2. How many short films with a good script can you name, that stand alone theatrically, online and on video store shelves, and how many features with no stories can you name that have raked in millions worldwide?

As you can see, this premise works in the theoretical world, but not in the real world.

You cannot make a living as a filmmaker by producing shorts, unless you want to work in television.

Now wait...I know you said making shorts is the best way to gain experience. I'll address that...again...in a second.

When you mentioned "it's all about the script" you coupled it with the experience of the crew. This leads to a few more questions that must be asked.

1. If experienced crew members are important, is it easier to get experienced crew members for a little short film, or for a feature film?

2. If experienced crew members are important, why are you working on the film?

If you truly want an experienced crew, you're going to have to pay for them and stay within budget so you'll need to know how to negotiate their rate. If you need the money to pay the negotiated rate, you have to raise capital. If you want to raise capital, you have to have a business plan, with an IPO (initial price offering) FOR A FEATURE WITH A GREAT SCRIPT!

Sorry, I don't mean to yell, but I don't know how else to drive this point home to everyone.

I bring up "Blair Witch Project" again. Did you know that film had a business plan?

They only needed to raise $20K to take a video camera out in the woods, but they knew they needed to develop a business plan and it worked out very well for them. Go get the book "Filmmaking and Finance." It will show you how to develop that plan.

You cannot learn these skills by making shorts!

You cannot learn the business of filmmaking by making shorts.

You cannot have a career in filmmaking without learning the business.

As an artist, we don't necessarily like the business side of things, but in order to partner with someone who does like it, we need to understand it to know what to look for in a partner and to be able to work as a team with that individual.

To learn how to make a feature, you have to get the education.

Know how to hire and negotiate with the key people on your team who will hire everyone else.

Know when you have a great script (your first step to success)

Know how to get the money

Know how to negotiate lab deals, camera packages, etc. and not get screwed

Know how, when and where to promote your film.

...and know how much everything is going to cost.

There are tons of books out there. Seminars galore. I recommend starting with reputable 2-3 day filmmaking courses. By reputable, I mean ones with a track record, and go from there.

The one I recommend is featured on our website (the first link in my signature) and once we officially launch, the site will contain resources to the books, software and resources I use and have used in the past, as well as gear and other stuff.

(Unless you're a DP, sound guy, gaffer, etc. don't worry about buying gear. Gaffers and sound guys will have their own and if you're smart you'll rent your camera packages. Unless you're planning on building your own studio, don't buy gear if you're serious about filmmaking, buy it if filmmaking is your hobby or if you have a wedding video business.)

We have been conditioned to believe that shorts will give us the experience we need to move on to features.

I know it's hard to believe, but you don't need to have experience to make a feature, you just need the information.

Shorts don't launch careers, features do.

If you've made shorts...great! Now stop. Take what you've learned, get the right information about the business of filmmaking, get the great script (low budget), get the money, grow a pair and make a real movie.

Don't be so worried about making mistakes while making a feature. Everyone in this business knows that each page of script equals one page of problems. Your first feature should be simple. Establish your budget, get your key players lined up (your DP and AD who will have the experience to fix problems you don't have a solution for), get the money and you're on your way.

I don't want to hear "Well, that sounds good and all but...", or, "You're just one of the lucky ones...", just stop it. If Tarantino, or Spike Lee made excuses for themselves, where would Indie filmmaking be today.

Tarantino got the information and jumped into features.

Spike Lee finally got the right information, stopped making shorts, dropped out of NYU and jumped into features.

They are no different than any of us. They simply followed the pattern of filmmaking success as it was laid out to them. Not in theory...in reality.

I can't lay out for you in this forum what took me 16 hours of independent classroom study and endless hours with my nose in books and late nights putting together business plans, writing treatments, optioning scripts and negotiating deals and developing and building relationships of trust with investors.

But what I can do is point you to where you can find it laid out plain and simple, and answer your questions along the way.

The way is simple, the work is hard and the rewards are priceless!

You just have to be willing to do what it takes, be honest with yourself, change your attitude and your course when necessary and never give up.

J. R. Legend

Tell me your biggest filmmaking challenge at <b> http://FilmSchoolSavings.com</b>

Let me kick your butt into gear at <b> http://JRLegend.com</b>

quote:

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Originally posted by zlindee92

I have been making short films since I was eight. I've never made any money, but I never spent any either. Sure I've spent some money on cheap editing software, and a cheap camera, but that's $350 on a hobby that's lasted seven years and couting...

---

I've already addressed this in other posts, and I don't know why it's not quite registering yet.

No matter. Hopefully it will, soon.

I have no problem with anyone making shorts as a hobby. $350 over 7 years is nothing compared to someone who fishes as a hobby. Filmmaking is fun, and it should be.

But for those who actually want to make it a career, making shorts to learn new tricks, as you put it, is a waste of time. You're going to hire people who know those "tricks" anyway and "tricks" don't make a good movie (can anyone say "Star Wars I - III").

A great script makes a great movie. A great script with decent actors makes a greater movie.

I think it's fantastic that filmmaking is your hobby. I never "outgrew" shorts as you indicated. You can't outgrow something, you never grew into in the first place.

It was my hobby in Jr. High School. It was fun playing around mini movies and music videos with newly discovered camera "tricks" with a VHS camcorder, two VCR's, a stereo and an Apple II computer. It was nothing serious. I always wanted to make movies, but I also understood making silly little short films was not the way to do it.

For the rest of the story, I'll have to refer you to my blog http://JRLegend.com and read the entry titled Who Is J. R. Legend?, but as an adult I became serious about entering the movie business, and after searching, I got the information on how to produce a feature, and I went right into features and the rest is history.

If you're a kid, or if you're an adult and filmmaking is just a way for you to express yourself and have fun, you go right ahead and do what you want.

But when you're an adult, serious about a career in filmmaking, get the right education (not film schools bloated with theory) and start making low-budget features and work your way up.

Remember, time = money. You don't have to spend money, to waste money.

J. R. Legend

Filmmaking Happens?:)? http://FilmSchoolSavings.com

Yeah, I agree with what you're saying. I guess I misunderstood. I know that shorts are not a good way to make a career, but I would not say they are a complete waste of time.

"I think anyone who knows how to mod a Nerf gun is a
bad-ass." -Leaf-o, The Angry Aardvark (www.angryaardvark.netfreehost.com)