The Star Wars Saga was the saga of Annikan Skywalker. I think it was a somewhat successful serious of pictures so I guess it depends upon if the character is compelling.

Training Day was a bout a total bastard and I think that one did fairly well. The Godfather Saga did good business. There are other examples. I think the whole thing about not wanting a movie about a villian is overly simplified. If the story is good and the characters are strong a story can have mass appeal.

RJSchwarz
San Diego, CA

I hear what your saying and thats why i said GENERALLY, there are always exceptions.

Im not a fan of Star Wars so i cant speak for it but i think training day worked because Denzels character, whilst he was a bastard, was also very likeable as he had charisma.

Thats kinda what i was asking, a "baddy" with charisma etc will work as a lead role because they are still likeable.

What other devices can you employ in such material so that the script is appealing??

Training Day also worked because you sympathized with the Ethan Hawke character, totally out of his depth againts Denzel.

With Michael Corleone in the Godfather I'm not sure the sympathy is the same. Its sort of the grandiousness of the entire plot and the mechanations. That and he's not super evil, what he does is illegal and at times totally immoral but he doesn't do them because he's evil. I would say the evil villian must have a consistant point of view. What do they want. And if that is reaonsable people will give them that little bit of credit needed.

I think the people won't buy an anti-hero to be untrue but I also believe enough people believe that sort of thing (producers, etc) that you are wise to consider it anyway.

Hannibal Lector had charisma. I don't really see it but a lot, and I mean a lot, of girls I know somehow thought he was sexy. Figure that out and you might have something.

Most vampires are also villianous and yet they've become romanticized anti-heros since the days of Anne Rice. Figure that out and you're a step closer as well.

I think it has to do a bit with understanding where they come from and a bit to do with everyones belief that we can be bad (by understanding the mob) even when we're straight laced 9-5 types.

RJSchwarz
San Diego, CA

quote:

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Originally posted by rjschwarz

The Star Wars Saga was the saga of Annikan Skywalker. I think it was a somewhat successful serious of pictures so I guess it depends upon if the character is compelling.

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Kind of. The original 'Star Wars' movie was the story of Luke Skywalker; I don't think the series would have been anywhere near as successful if they'd started with... uh, whatever the new 'first' one was called, I've forgotten.

I agree, I was being snarky. The new trilogy lessoned the whole in my humble opinion as the background provided in Star Wars (A new hope) seemed deeper before we knew the details and its hard for me to sympathize with Annikan. I mean he goes to Jedi heaven because he saved Luke? After his casual murdering of Jedi and imperial officers and rebel troops and his acceptance of an entire planets destruction. I guess when it comes to Jedi heaven I'm sorry is good enough.

RJSchwarz
San Diego, CA

Scarface is a great example that had a character that we loved to watch...many of the other characters were jsut as bad as he was so it made it easier to follow Tony...up to a point. Then he got what he deserved. No Country For Old Men followed a villain and whether you liked the ending or not (I won't tell if you haven't seen it) he was also an interesting character to watch.

Simple stories with complex characters.

What rjscwarz said about the Michael Corleone character is very true. I can't think of too many characters who would be a better example of what you are trying to do(especially in The Godfather Part II). I grew up reading a lot of science fiction, and anti-heroes--in the cyberpunk world--were very common. It's true: he can be as bad as Hannibal Lector, but making him interesting enough for people to at least watch, if not neccesarily sympathize with, is the key. I know this is easier said than done, of course. Writing GOOD characters who we sympathize with is hard enough. But you might want to check out a 1977 John Frankenheimer film called "Black Sunday." The two main characters are, for lack of a better term, terrorists, who want to do something pretty horrifying. You sure don't want them to succeed, but they have their reasons for wanting to do it, and they are very fascinating to watch. Hope this helps!
P.S. Regarding the previous quote:
"Hannibal Lector had charisma. I don't really see it but a lot, and I mean a lot, of girls I know somehow thought he was sexy. Figure that out and you might have something."
My friend, if Hannibal Lector is sexy, then Woody Allen and I are total stud-muffins.

jjf

Well I don't know about you but Woody Allen seems to have gone through a few women in his day and I'd say he's batting above average considering his looks.

What I said about Hannibal holds true and I can't say I understand it at all except he's the ultimate bad boy, a gentleman in his own way, smart, well travelled, artistic, and a chef. For some reason that combination appeals enough to balance out the homicidal cannibal part.

RJSchwarz
San Diego, CA

Thank you all for your comments. It has given me alot to think about!