I think it's useless. Doesn't make it true.

What I can tell you is after you finish spending money and
time on film school you will need to start at the bottom.
You can start at the bottom without going to film school.
You can make connections and get experience with equipment
by interning and working your way up into whatever department
you want without getting a degree. There is no answer to
your question. Many people have gone to films school and
ended up with a career. Many people have not gone to film
school and ended up with a career.

For me, I didn't have the money to attend films school and I
didn't want to spend four years after high school in school
and THEN start at the bottom at 22/23 instead of at 18. So
I jumped right in. Worked for free, worked for very little money,
but I was working and meeting established pros and that was
what I wanted. I got my film education on real sets with working
professionals.

Just one persons story. But I gotta tell you I have never in my
career met anyone on set who didn't go to films school- from
a cameraman to a gaffer to a set dresser to a cinematographer
to an editor - who wished they had gone. But I've met dozens
who DID go who say they wasted their time and money.

=============================================
The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress.
Joseph Joubert, essayist (1754-1824)

I'd say it can work either way. I'm in my third year of school in New Orleans (After a fairly long break) and I like it.

Basically I think you can get the same things out of either approach it depends on you. My advice is this: if you tend to thrive in an academic environment (if you like school, in other words) then go to school, you'll get a lot out of it.

If you're not that type of person then don't waste your time or money. Jump in. Go for it.

Or you can take a hybrid approach. I go to school, but there are always independent productions to work on here. There are also usually Features looking for extras, PA's and grips. I've been able to get a nice cross-education that way.

Vertigo

quote:

---

Originally posted by JerseyZombie

Hello everyone

So my question today is about studying film in college. I've always adored movies, and I cannot picture myself doing anything else with my life. I love being behind the camera. I love writing the stories. This is why I would like to pursue film as my major. Mostly because of the connections and the experience with the equipment. I just want to know about the difficulties in getting a job in filmmaking. No, no, I don't mean making it BIG and trying to be a highly acclaimed director. I mean other jobs within that profession, like camera-man, editor, cinematographer. I always hear and read about people saying that film school is a waste, and that it is nearly impossible to make it in life with something as "useless" (as they call it) as a degree in film. Do they refer to making it as a big time director? Is it really that difficult to get a job in the film industry as a cinematographer or an editor? Is taking film in college really that useless?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

---

The fact is that most filmschools are geared toward aspiring Directors with some dabbling in Producing, Editing, and Writing depending upon the school.

Most of the crew jobs are touched upon but it'd be a stretch to suggest that they are adequately taught well enough in a University filmschool environment.

A filmschool degree is mostly useless as are, quite frankly, most of of the classes you might take to get it particularly if you want to just work below-the-line.

The path to achieving one of those jobs varies depending upon which job it is you're after. But for the most part, the process revolves around just jumping in by volunteering to work for free on whatever projects you can and meeting people along the way who hopefully will like you enough to call you when they get jobs that pay. It can be time-consuming and frustrating as there are so many elements in play that will lead you to success or keep you swimming around in the shallow pool wondering why you just can't "make it."

I moved to LA about seventeen years ago knowing no one and just about nothing about how to break into the professional film industry. We didn't have the internet and there were virtually no resources available to help someone like me figure it out. But after about a year of working my butt off on everything and anything I could, usually for no money at all as an AC, I finally managed to get on a Warner Bros. movie that started non-union then went union partway through. After I got my card, a whole new world opened up as I was suddenly able to work on big shows with experienced professionals where I was finally making a real living. But getting in doesn't mean you coast. There are ups and downs for everyone, especially now with the worldwide economy putting a damper on financing for everyone. Breaking in is only part of the work. MAINTAINING a career for the long term is just as important and is definitely something that most filmschools don't teach.

So I did something about it. After my frustrating climb into the business and after receiving A LOT of questions like this from people just like you, I decided to write a book designed to help people who are serious about a real career in the professional film industry. I wrote the book that I wish I had had before I started. If I knew even half of what I know now, I would have approached things very differently. Hopefully my experience and the book which is written from the experience of many others can help others who want to build a real career. Once you've read at least the first five chapters plus the complete sections for the departments you'd like to work in, I promise that you'll be ready to walk on a real set with confidence.

I urge you to not only check out the book (link below), but also keep up on the current film industry news at http://www.realfilmcareer.com. No fluff or box-office numbers. None of that matters to real professionals who work on real sets. What YOU need to know is where the work is and who is doing it so that you can improve your chances at meeting the right people at the right time. There's no sense in spinning your wheels if you don't have to, right? 🙂

Good luck!

Brian Dzyak
Cameraman/Author
IATSE Local 600, SOC
http://www.whatireallywanttodo.com
http://www.realfilmcareer.com

?
This is sort of slimy, actually.

Basically, "School is useless, but I wrote a book on how to get crew jobs so buy that instead".

I like the way someone who never actually went to any film school comes of as an authority on what most film schools teach.

I can't say anything about other schools but as far as mine goes they offer classes in cinematography, directing, editing, production sound, screenwriting, performance, production, and post-production all at basic, intermediate, and advanced levels for undergraduates. In addition there are several AFI workshops offered each semester conducted by industry professionals. I know it really sounds like I'm pro-school, and I am (for me), but that isn't the point. My point is that Brian here is coming off like an expert on a topic he can't actually know anything about.

So I looked this guy up, and according to what I found his book should be called "How To Spend Your Life Working Crappy Camera Jobs".

Working a series of low-level camera jobs over the course of 20 years (with very little advancement) doesn't really sound like a career in filmmaking. It sounds like grunt work for the guys who actually do make films.

And you WILL do some grunt work for little or no money, trust me, but you won't need to buy a book to get those jobs or to learn how to spend 20 years on the bottom rung of the film industry ladder. Finding crew work is actually not all that hard to do, and you can make decent money loading and unloading trucks, but it's not really a career in film is it?

Again, I'm not advocating for or against film school, I just don't think you need this particular troll's help.

He might be a decent cameraman, though. Maybe I'll hire him.

Vertigo

Take it easy, Vertigo.

Brian isn't a troll. He is a valuable member of this community
. It's fine to take issue with people's opinions and comments
- in fact as a moderator I encourage argument and challenges
- but I ask you to keep the name calling out of any discussion.

For the record, I have worked what you call "low level" jobs my
entire career. And it's a damn fine career. I love what I do and I
make an excellent living do it. Those "crappy camera job" are
usually filled by very skilled, very creative people who help
people like you realize their vision. Try to show them just a little
respect when you hire them.

=============================================
The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress.
Joseph Joubert, essayist (1754-1824)

I think this is a great question across the board- should one go to college or jump right in to the work force?

It's true that going to college won't get you a job in the industry- my first one wasn't even in the same field (mental health!), but I have to admit that most fellow industry workers / crew members respect those who spent the money and time to learn whatever it is you studied in college. It's like a non-life threatening version of the military in at least one way- despite people's opinions on joining or not, they respect those that do.

Since this business (like any other) is highly competitive and based largely on referrals from people who work or have worked in your shoes, even a little bit of help can go a long way. That being said, it's hard to put a dollar amount on its worth, and I think most people find it a little disappointing in that regard. An agent told me once, "it's who you know that counts, talent is just a pre-requisite". But if an employer/producer/director only knows 2-3 people of near equal talent who are available for their next shoot, then perhaps a visit to college might help make up at least a fraction of their decision. ...as long as you aren't as irritating as Stewie is - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNkp4QF3we8
=)

__________________________________________________________________________
Composer for Film, TV, and Video Games ? Session Player on Violin, Viola, Cello, and Piano
website: http://www.douglasedward.com ? youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/douglasedward

quote:

---

Originally posted by DVertigo

?
This is sort of slimy, actually.

Basically, "School is useless, but I wrote a book on how to get crew jobs so buy that instead".

I like the way someone who never actually went to any film school comes of as an authority on what most film schools teach.

I can't say anything about other schools but as far as mine goes they offer classes in cinematography, directing, editing, production sound, screenwriting, performance, production, and post-production all at basic, intermediate, and advanced levels for undergraduates. In addition there are several AFI workshops offered each semester conducted by industry professionals. I know it really sounds like I'm pro-school, and I am (for me), but that isn't the point. My point is that Brian here is coming off like an expert on a topic he can't actually know anything about.

So I looked this guy up, and according to what I found his book should be called "How To Spend Your Life Working Crappy Camera Jobs".

Working a series of low-level camera jobs over the course of 20 years (with very little advancement) doesn't really sound like a career in filmmaking. It sounds like grunt work for the guys who actually do make films.

And you WILL do some grunt work for little or no money, trust me, but you won't need to buy a book to get those jobs or to learn how to spend 20 years on the bottom rung of the film industry ladder. Finding crew work is actually not all that hard to do, and you can make decent money loading and unloading trucks, but it's not really a career in film is it?

Again, I'm not advocating for or against film school, I just don't think you need this particular troll's help.

He might be a decent cameraman, though. Maybe I'll hire him.

Vertigo

---

Wow, that was uncalled for. I did go to filmschool. I also worked very hard to break into the industry. I'm also not suggesting that filmschool is useless for everyone. The book was written, not because I had any great desire to write a book, but because I realized that there was a need out there for REAL information for those aspiring to work in the film industry and have a real viable career.

Clearly you haven't read the book or you'd know that it doesn't suggest or center around the Camera Department at all. The first five chapters are about the industry in general while the subsequent chapters have detailed information regarding EVERY job on a working professional set. It is meant to provide a kind of "day in the life" story that can usually only be obtained by being there. I realize that not everyone has access to that kind of experience, so this book was written to be a kind of alternative.

Had you done any research into my work and attempts to help, you also would have learned that I don't ONLY recommend the book I wrote. I frequently recommend a great many other resources that I truly believe are helpful amidst the slew of other fairly useless books, etc out there that really only feed on the naivete of enthusiastic wanna be filmmakers.

Trust me... I'm not making money on the book. I really do want to help so that others don't have to struggle the way I and many others have.

Good luck to all! 🙂

Brian Dzyak
Cameraman/Author
IATSE Local 600, SOC
http://www.whatireallywanttodo.com
http://www.realfilmcareer.com

If I may, I'd like to address a few pertinent issues that this user brought up and dispel some misconceptions that exist out there.

quote:

---

Originally posted by DVertigo

?

Basically, "School is useless, but I wrote a book on how to get crew jobs so buy that instead".

---

Again, I didn't say that film school is "useless" for everyone, just mostly for crew. And the book is not about "how to get crew jobs" at all. Had you actually read it, you'd know that. What most filmschools lack is the curriculum to adequately instruct students in the realities of what life in the professional film industry is truly like, from working to "get into" the business to maintaining a viable career. THAT is the overall theme of what I wrote, not a simple "here's the secret to being rich and successful." Please do your own research before choosing to insult.

quote:

---

Originally posted by DVertigo

?I like the way someone who never actually went to any film school comes of as an authority on what most film schools teach.

---

I did go to filmschool. In addition, I am aware of what most filmschools offer as curriculum. I am aware that some do go more in depth than others, however regardless of that, as I mentioned above, it is one thing to teach nuts & bolts in a non-pressure environment with other students and it's something else to understand the realistic day-to-day issues that come about as a result of very real politics and other "pressures" that we deal with in the professional world. While you may know of a few schools, I suggest you might take a look at the comprehensive list of filmschools available worldwide (available at http://www.whatireallywanttodo.com and http://www.realfilmcareer.com) and study the curriculum of all of them then make a judgment on whether or not the majority of them are adequately educating students about the realities of working in the professional film industry.

quote:

---

Originally posted by DVertigo

?I can't say anything about other schools but as far as mine goes they offer classes in cinematography, directing, editing, production sound, screenwriting, performance, production, and post-production all at basic, intermediate, and advanced levels for undergraduates. In addition there are several AFI workshops offered each semester conducted by industry professionals. I know it really sounds like I'm pro-school, and I am (for me), but that isn't the point. My point is that Brian here is coming off like an expert on a topic he can't actually know anything about.

---

And you know that I don't know anything about this topic how exactly? Please elaborate with specific examples... or apologize. Thank you!

quote:

---

Originally posted by DVertigo

?So I looked this guy up, and according to what I found his book should be called "How To Spend Your Life Working Crappy Camera Jobs".

---

Again, clearly you haven't really read the book or researched who I am and my career. Of course for those of us who actually work as well-paid professionals in the industry, there are some "crappy" jobs from time to time. 🙂 But on the whole, I've had some wonderful experiences that have taken me around the world where I've met a lot of amazing people while I shoot great images for interesting topics. If that counts as "spending your life working crappy camera jobs" then I suppose I'd love to see what an absolutely amazing job would be! 🙂

quote:

---

Originally posted by DVertigo

?Working a series of low-level camera jobs over the course of 20 years (with very little advancement) doesn't really sound like a career in filmmaking. It sounds like grunt work for the guys who actually do make films.

---

Hmm... this notion of "guys who actually DO make films. The fact is that EVERYONE on a set is a filmmaker. This user posits that the ONLY person on set who is a "filmmaker" is the Director. Hardly truth at all. The Dolly Grip, for instance, is just as much a "filmmaker" as everyone else on the set. Some might even say that the only person who doesn't really have to know anything is the Director. Of course that's not entirely true, but the point is that a crew consists of fifty to a hundred or more highly skilled people who specialize in a craft that is necessary to make just about any movie. If you think that a crew is just a collection of mindless drones who push things around, I challenge you to go out on the street where you live, gather up a random collection of fifty people, take them to your set and tell them to help you make your movie because YOU are the filmmaker. I'd wager that you'd have a difficult time getting even one shot off much less finish your movie before the money ran out.

It takes an army to make a movie, an army of people who, on a professional level anyway, have worked very hard to learn their crafts and maintain viable careers that enable them to buy homes and raise families.

quote:

---

Originally posted by DVertigo

?And you WILL do some grunt work for little or no money, trust me, but you won't need to buy a book to get those jobs or to learn how to spend 20 years on the bottom rung of the film industry ladder. Finding crew work is actually not all that hard to do, and you can make decent money loading and unloading trucks, but it's not really a career in film is it?

---

Yes, actually "loading and unloading trucks" is a career in film. But as I stated above, it is much more than that. If you don't think so, then you clearly have no experience working in the film industry on real projects with professionals.

quote:

---

Originally posted by DVertigo

?Again, I'm not advocating for or against film school, I just don't think you need this particular troll's help.

---

I'm available to answer any questions one might have. The book is there for anyone who wants real answers to questions most people aren't even aware they should ask.

I also caution against taking advice from those who are bitter and angry or are truly just trying to sell naive "filmmakers" a bill of goods for cheap easy profit.

quote:

---

Originally posted by DVertigo

?He might be a decent cameraman, though. Maybe I'll hire him.

Vertigo

---

I wouldn't agree to work for you for a couple of reasons. Mostly, life is too short to work for someone who has such a bad attitude in general. You also have no regard for anyone else who works in the film industry, regarding everyone "below you" as just guys who load and unload trucks. And, despite your belief that I am wallowing around in the lower rungs of the business, it's quite the opposite. While I began my career in production working 14 hour days on sets ranging from cheap student films to some of the largest ever made, I've been quite content moving to the marketing side where my days are shorter and my pay is higher. Not only do I actually light and shoot more top-tier talent than most "big time" DPs do in their careers, I actually have time to have a life outside of the industry. Quite often, I will visit sets and work side-by-side with crew with whom I worked with years prior when I was an AC and they'll ask how THEY can do what I do because they see the "easier" life I have now.

So clearly "Vertigo," you have issues and not a lot of real knowledge about the professional film industry, how it works, and why people do what they do. I will continue to reach out to try to help those who are serious about building a real and viable long-term career in the professional film industry. I'm not the only one out there doing this so maybe there are others you can find to insult. But for everyone else, know that there is a lot of noise out there to sift through and naysayers like Vertigo who aren't interested in truly learning or having anyone else try to help. But we are out here and ready to listen!

Good luck to all!

Brian Dzyak
Cameraman/Author
IATSE Local 600, SOC
http://www.whatireallywanttodo.com
http://www.realfilmcareer.com

We get this question quite often, so I'll add my perspective yet again.

I am also interested in film production, but I am now a middle-aged professional, so I have a different way of looking at things. For me, the first thing after high school was to go to college and get a degree, and then get work experience in my chosen field. After that, there's more course work, perhaps an advanced degree, and, of course, yet more experience. This is the culture I live and breathe in - all the seniors tell the rookies the same thing, and they say this from a business environment that has taken centuries to form and which is fairly consistent all over the world.

So I would say, go to film school, get your diploma or degree, and start from the bottom. But that's just me.