First this: http://www.shouldiworkforfree.com/ 🙂

Do you remember that show, "Project Greenlight"? The gist was that a bunch of aspiring filmmakers submit their scripts and eventually just one of them wins the "prize" of getting to make that movie for a budget of $1 million dollars.

Now, anyone who makes movies knows that making any movie of quality requires significantly more than $1 million, to do it right, anyway.

The real story behind the show/contest? A few of the runner's up contestants walked away with first look and multi picture deals with studios. The "winner" got to make A movie, but the movie he really wanted to make was compromised by the lack of budget... or better yet, the lack of an adequate budget given what the script demanded.

It was George Lucas who is quoted as saying, "if you have 16 feet of film, then make a 16 foot long movie." All too often, aspiring filmmakers bite off more than can chew, thus ending up with a poor result. Instead of making a terrific $1,000 movie, then make a terrible $20,000 movie.

Brian Dzyak
Cameraman/Author
IATSE Local 600, SOC
http://www.whatireallywanttodo.com
http://www.realfilmcareer.com

In this day and age, we are privileged to have the resources to make independent films outside of the big budget studios. This is something that has not been possible prior to digital filmmaking.

As an independent producer, I have worked on many short films and am in preproduction on a feature right now. For the feature, we have a minimal budget that will require to use free crew. If it weren't for people donating their time and skills, these films would never be made.

I have done several projects to where I have never seen a dime and even more I have lost a lot of money on. The reason I continue to work on projects like that is that I am working my way to a more successful career and am building my network. I have gained lots of amazing experience through frustrating times where there has been no money. But it is al worth it with the possibility of the film finding success or one of the crew members getting a big paid gig and asks you to work on it.

Also you would be very surprised. the headaches and frustrations do not go away when there is a budget and a salary. You will always need more then what is given and the salary will never seem enough for what you have to do. This is a career where you really have to be crazy to get into. Just remember there are good days and bad days. Stay strong and you will get your big break soon enough

Alex Levine
Producer

quote:

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Originally posted by ACE Studio
there is one thing I just don't get. Why do filmmakers always want to cut corners?

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Because most filmmakers do not have unlimited funds. In
order for most of us to make our low budget dreams come
true we need to cut corners.

quote:

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Originally posted by ACE Studio
Is there anyone on here that truly advocates making films for no money, and trying to get crew for no money and trying to do large scale effects or stunts for no money?

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I do. I truly advocate making film with no money. I deeply
believe in trying to do the very best you can - even if that
means attempting large scale effects and stunts. Dream big!
Fail big is a possibility. But I gotta try.

quote:

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Originally posted by ACE Studio
The percentage of films that are made this way that are successful, that get up front money or distribution, that get bought up by larger companies, that get theatrical, that get acclaim in real trade publications (and in horror, I guess Fangoria is about as far as I would stretch on what constitutes the trades), and that get real return on investment, has to be less than 0.001%. So why do I see so many people doing this?

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Because being in the 0.001% is a big dream. And those who don't
even try cannot possibly end up with even a 0.001% chance.

quote:

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Originally posted by ACE Studio
Does anyone every ask themselves whether the reason they cannot get money for their project is a sign that it should not be made or they should keep pushing for money rather than going this route?

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I ask myself that every, single day. And on every, single project.
And then I keep going. Because to stop, is... well... not in my nature.
I want to make my low budget dreams come true, so I keep going
even in the face of terrible odds.

What else can I do? Stop? Not make another movie?

Not me.

=============================================
The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress.
Joseph Joubert, essayist (1754-1824)

I agree with CI. I suppose that, if I was told I would NEVER be a good artist, then maybe I shouldn't waste my time. But I am also attracted by the idea of trying and failing and trying again, despite knowing that I am fighting a hopeless battle. So, in this way, I'm like Rocky.

quote:

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Originally posted by Aspiring mogul

I agree with CI. I suppose that, if I was told I would NEVER be a good artist, then maybe I shouldn't waste my time. But I am also attracted by the idea of trying and failing and trying again, despite knowing that I am fighting a hopeless battle. So, in this way, I'm like Rocky.

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Sounds more like Sisyphus. 🙂

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_of_Sisyphus

Brian Dzyak
Cameraman/Author
IATSE Local 600, SOC
http://www.whatireallywanttodo.com
http://www.realfilmcareer.com

I get that and a lot of the responses are justified. I am referring to the idiots, people Asylum, who have preexisting distribution contracts and make 10 films a year that abuse crew after crew, asking them to work for either nothing or next to nothing, offering copy and credit. After you have made 30+ films, should you not stop with the bullsh&t? I get an up and coming filmmaker asking for favors, especially when the project has promise, but there are plenty of people who have sh&t projects, and know it, and are just looking to make a $$$ off other people's slave labor and naivety. They promise you a copy of the footage the stuff you made, but its worthless because there was not enough money to make the stuff look good. Yeah you might meet someone, but half of these people are not going to get very far because they only had enough talent to get hired for free, and will quit when nobody hires them for pay.

Look, I have worked for a fraction of my rate, when I could spare time and it was a friend, or the opportunity to meet good people came up. But asking someone to work on a 4-6 week feature, or even a short feature, that has a disaster of a script and no hope of getting anything more than free distribution seems a waste, and I just feel bad for these people they get that just don't know any better.

If I have money coming in to pay my bills, then I can put up with some ridiculousness but not for free and racking up debt. It just is not worth it. Some of these knuckleheads don't even have the decency to offer deferred pay. If they truly thought there film had a shot, then they would offer a notarized agreement to me for 20% of their gross. Even pretend to make it worth my while.

So please explain these people to me and tell me how it is OK. That is what I am asking.

making low budget dreams come true

You will need a psychologist to explain why they do what they do, but, since you don't want to waste time with them, you don't have to worry too much about what they think and why they think.

That said, I have had many experiences with such people, so this is how I view them.

1) Some know that they cannot get the money, but they want to be the next Steven Spielberg and give orders, so they ask for free labor. IOW, they enjoy their power, and they'd rather exercise it even if it means they're also making no money.

2) Others do it for the status, not the power, and for the same reason. They also know they cannot get the money.

3) Still others get satisfaction out of cheating people of their time, with vague promises of winning the next Oscar and being part of a runaway hit. As before, they may not get money themselves, but they enjoy hurting others.

I have been thinking about this, because, in my work, I have come across all three categories. And, yes, I have been cheated of my time and money, but I learned the ways of the world, and I'm wiser for it. I avoid such losers, because, quite frankly, they have to go down. And Hollywood, of course, has more than its fill of sharks.

quote:

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Originally posted by ACE Studio
I get an up and coming filmmaker asking for favors, especially when the project has promise, but there are plenty of people who have sh&t projects, and know it, and are just looking to make a $$$ off other people's slave labor and naivety. They promise you a copy of the footage the stuff you made, but its worthless because there was not enough money to make the stuff look good.

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I might be that guy. I don't call it slave labor only because I
don't demand people work for me for free. I ask. Those who say no
are cajoled or bullied into working for me for free. And maybe
there isn't much quality material for a reel, but I offer footage
anyway. It's the least I can do for people who work for me for
free.

quote:

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Originally posted by ACE Studio
But asking someone to work on a 4-6 week feature, or even a short feature, that has a disaster of a script and no hope of getting anything more than free distribution seems a waste, and I just feel bad for these people they get that just don't know any better.

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It seems a waste to you and I respect that. But there are some
people who do it willingly. I do. I work for free on other peoples
movies - even those that might be disasters and have no hope of
getting distribution - so I know and understand both sides.

You're really going to hate me; I'm one of the knuckleheads who
don't offer deferred pay. 20% to the 5 to 7 actors, the 10 to 12
crew and the 2 to 4 post people and I would end up in a "The
Producers" situation. So I don't offer it.

I truly believe my movies have a shot. Not at making hundreds of
thousands, but of paying back the investors and (I hope) returning
enough money so I can make another one. I can't afford a decent
day rate for the cast and crew - I can't afford an accountant to
keep track and pay out all deferments.

quote:

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Originally posted by ACE Studio
So please explain these people to me and tell me how it is OK. That is what I am asking.

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There you are. Two posts explaining to you how I feel it's okay.

I will not change your mind, nor do I attempt to, but I have
explained these people as best I can. A discussion is about
clarity not agreement. I hope I have at the very least given
you an understanding from a low budget producers point
of view.

I'm one of them, I've worked for them, I know these people. I even
admire these people for making their low budget dreams come true.

=============================================
The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress.
Joseph Joubert, essayist (1754-1824)

If you work for free, then you can ask for free labor - that's fair. But I often see people who don't want to work for free and want others to work for free under them. That's quite insulting.

And these people get resentful if you say no. So, to Ace Studio, if they're resentful at you, you should let them stay resentful. And, if they insult you, insult them back - give as good as you get. After awhile, they'll accept reality.

I hear you. But for clarity, I ask for far more free labor than I give.
It is not a fair quid pro quo.

Many, many people I ask to work for me for free are insulted. So I
understand where ACE is coming from. I have worked for free for
someone who then will not return the favor. I don't feel insulted.
But it's really difficult to make me feel insulted. I admire people
who make movies. And making a very low budget movie, with no
one getting paid is MUCH harder than making a movie when there
is a budget.

I'm glad to say that I have never experienced anyone who enjoys
hurting others or gets satisfaction out of cheating people of their
time. Since you have, I understand why you would be very cautious.

Look, to a degree that is fair. When I mention high percentage deferment, I am not talking about actors, I am talking about that key person or two who made you movie happen: The guy that gave you a whole original score for next to nothing, the who who spent two months make prosthetics for your film out of the kindness of his heart, the AD or UPM that got you permission to shoot at the Kodak Theater, etc. The guy that spent 4 months doing your CGI. Almost every one of these projects has one.

As for the factor of asking for too much and being insulting. I may get annoyed at the endless ads for free crew but it is the unreasonable requests that kill me. People that want the props guy to get 12 Ferarri's for free, or an airplane, the effects guy that has 1 week and $300 to make a full body creature suit, basically situations where the only way for the producers to get what they want is for the crew to lay out their own money and nearly kill themself with overly long days. I think if you are going to ask for free help, you should have the decency to know when something is just too much, and it is time to cough up some money or nix the element.

making low budget dreams come true

True it does seem that alot of people do cut corners, but theres also alot of people who are just being creative. When you don't have millions of dollars to CG a monster, or pay a whole bunch of actors, and stff like that you've got to come up with workarounds. I personaly volunteer at a film co op helping out with the Audio side of things and that helps out some upcoming filmmakers who just have to make some sacrifices. The upside ythough is if you have the love for the art, It will get done, and it will get done well